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snowdog
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xx Genesis and the Shuffle Beat
« Thread started on: Sep 8th, 2017, 06:44am »

In the early days, Genesis would use a shuffle-beat rhythm for sections of longer songs ("In The Cage", "Deep in the Motherlode"), but it wasn't until the 80's that they started to do the occasional full song. The three that come to mind are "Misunderstanding", "Like It Or Not" and "Way of the World". Interestingly, none of these is regarded by most fans as a great Genesis song , although I happen to like all three.
So, is there something about the shuffle beat that puts Genesis fans off or is it just that they are three inferior songs? Would "Way of the World" be greatly improved if it had a driving pop/rock beat?


« Last Edit: Sep 8th, 2017, 06:45am by snowdog » User IP Logged

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Schrottrocker
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xx Re: Genesis and the Shuffle Beat
« Reply #1 on: Sep 8th, 2017, 07:39am »

How interesting. smiley OK, I'm nerd enough to make a complete list of shuffle beat Genesis songs before we go ahead. wink Let's see:


- Patricia/In Hiding: entirely in shuffle 3/4

- Image Blown Out: entirely in shuffle 4/4

- The Magic of Time: entirely in shuffle 3/4 (actually a Jazz Waltz rhythm)

- Going Out To Get You (live version): instrumental part in the middle is in shuffle, the rest is straight

- The Knife: songs keeps going back and forth between shuffle and straight rhythm throughout

- The Return of the Giant Hogweed: majority of the song is shuffle, only final part (from "Might Hogweed is avenged" onwards) is straight

- The Fountain of Salmacis: middle part is shuffle

- Twilight Alehouse: choruses are in shuffle plus the flute solo passage after third chorus

- The Light: long middle part is shuffle

- Get 'em out by Friday: majority of the song is in shuffle, the middle part doesn't pronounce the shuffle feeling though so it becomes unnoticeable - to the "this is an announcement from Genetic Control" part where it comes back Sorry, my memory deceived me with this one. The shuffle rhythm stays consistently throughout the song

- Supper's Ready: Willow Farm is in shuffle except for the "all change" part; As Sure As Eggs Is Eggs also has a slow shuffle groove

- The Battle of Epping Forest: the choruses in the "Reverend" passage are in true shuffle plus the final "there's no-one left alive" passage (a 12/8); before and after that last passage there's a fake shuffle which is a disguised 7/4

- In The Cage: intro is in shuffle 4/4 (or 12/8), morphs into true 3/4 then

- Back in NYC: intro has the same shuffle as In The Cage, morphs into 7/8 then

- The Chamber of 32 Doors: choruses are in shuffle

- The Waiting Room: the second half starts in shuffle, changes to straight 4/4 then

- The Colony of Slippermen: parts are in shuffle

- A Trick of The Tail: entirely in shuffle

- All In A Mouse's Night: the "couple" verses are in shuffle, the mouse and the cat are straight

- Pigeons: entirely in shuffle

- Ballad of Big: verses are in shuffle

- Deep In The Motherlode: majority of the song is in shuffle, except for the middle part and the outro

- The Lady Lies: entirely in shuffle (12/8)

- Misunderstanding: entirely in shuffle (12/8)

- Duke's Travels: about first half is in shuffle, then straight

- Me and Sarah Jane: last final chorus is in shuffle (only a few bars)

- Like It Or Not: entirely in shuffle (12/8)

- Me and Virgil: entirely in shuffle

- I'd Rather Be You: entirely in shuffle

- Living Forever: entirely in shuffle

- Way of the world: entirely in shuffle (12/8)


Whoa, I didn't expect this list to get so long. I'm not sure if we agree on the definition of shuffle - did you mean those I marked with '12/8'? Anyways this was interesting, I could grasp most of it from memory. grin But no, looking at this list I guess we can't blame the shuffle beat for making bad songs... I can't imagine Way Of The World with a straight driving beat. I like that song by the way, I just know most fans dislike it.

edit: I marked the songs which are completely in shuffle beat
« Last Edit: Sep 8th, 2017, 11:27am by Schrottrocker » User IP Logged

snowdog
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xx Re: Genesis and the Shuffle Beat
« Reply #2 on: Sep 8th, 2017, 09:11am »

Wow, Schrottrocker, that's amazing! I had no idea there were that many, and I've been listening to this band for decades! But almost all the songs you marked as being 100% shuffle, except perhaps, "The Lady Lies" are sort of "second class" fan faves. Not many folks consider them classics, I don't think.
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xx Re: Genesis and the Shuffle Beat
« Reply #3 on: Sep 8th, 2017, 11:34am »

Most of the progressive songs appear in this list rather for the progressive nature of the music, which apparently includes switching between different rhythms on a regular basis. It's interesting to see how the songs tend to stick to one rhythm in the very early period before Trespass as well as in later times. Also, CAS is the only album without any shuffle rhythm at all, not even on any of the non-album songs.
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xx Re: Genesis and the Shuffle Beat
« Reply #4 on: Sep 8th, 2017, 12:00pm »

on Sep 8th, 2017, 07:39am, Schrottrocker wrote:
Image Blown Out: entirely in shuffle 4/4

That would be the GENESIS ARCHIVE version. The early demo version alternates between shuffle & straight.
« Last Edit: Sep 8th, 2017, 12:00pm by onetwothree » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Genesis and the Shuffle Beat
« Reply #5 on: Sep 8th, 2017, 8:12pm »

Yes, you are right. I compared the two versions, the early demo version contains that straight bridge part between verses and choruses which was deleted in its entirety in the later version as it appears on Archive 1 disc 4.

I just listened through a couple of tracks and wasn't it clear, I forgot a few songs:

- In Limbo is in straight 4/4 but it has a coda in a 6/8 shuffle groove

- Provocation and Looking For Someone both start straight but they share the same shuffle part towards the end

- Resignation starts in a shuffle 3/4, then switches to straight 4/4

- The 'One-Handed Drum Solo' as it appears on bootlegs was played in shuffle throughout. Judging from alternate recordings on youtube, this piece was basically an interactive improvisation between Phil's drumming and Peter's story of the "famous Russian spastic" so it seems likely it varied everytime it was performed, nonetheless Phil seems to have stuck to a shuffle rhythm though.

- The Drum Duet in its later form as it appears on TWWW Vol. 2 would always start straight, then switch to shuffle roughly halfway through.
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xx Re: Genesis and the Shuffle Beat
« Reply #6 on: Sep 10th, 2017, 1:48pm »

Yeah, this shuffle beat they employed is one of those aspects that stands out to me. It gave several of their songs a bouncy, eccentric quality. One usage of it that I really love is in the middle section of Mad Man Moon.
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xx Re: Genesis and the Shuffle Beat
« Reply #7 on: Sep 11th, 2017, 1:31pm »

on Sep 10th, 2017, 1:48pm, NoSonOfVine wrote:
Yeah, this shuffle beat they employed is one of those aspects that stands out to me. It gave several of their songs a bouncy, eccentric quality. One usage of it that I really love is in the middle section of Mad Man Moon.

Do you mean the "hey man, I'm the sand man" section? That's in 7/8 so I don't think it counts as a shuffle beat.
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xx Re: Genesis and the Shuffle Beat
« Reply #8 on: Sep 11th, 2017, 7:38pm »

I don't think all of these songs have a shuffle beat. Just because something is in compound time doesn't make it a shuffle (the heart-beat sounding things like Deep in the Motherlode, Like it or Not)

Shuffles generally have a swing rhythm (like The Return of the Giant Hogweed)
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xx Re: Genesis and the Shuffle Beat
« Reply #9 on: Sep 12th, 2017, 6:05pm »

on Sep 11th, 2017, 1:31pm, onetwothree wrote:
Do you mean the "hey man, I'm the sand man" section? That's in 7/8 so I don't think it counts as a shuffle beat.

No, the instrumental part just before that.
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