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Aug 18th, 2017, 8:45pm



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 veryhotthread  Author  Topic: Some observations about Tony  (Read 3877 times)
CyanideWand
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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #15 on: May 18th, 2017, 07:37am »

True, but there is a difference between your opinion being influenced and borrowed.
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Fabrizio
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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #16 on: May 18th, 2017, 08:48am »

on May 18th, 2017, 07:37am, CyanideWand wrote:
True, but there is a difference between your opinion being influenced and borrowed.


So it couldn't just be a case where Phil thought that Steve's songs weren't as 'good' as Mike's and Tony's in that moment? I cannot know obviously but it seems to me all Genesis members were always quite clear about what they llike or else, it might lead to frictions within a band but I believe it's the only healthy way to go about it, otherwise you simply allocate 25% of the record to each member which I don't really think is smart.
Look at George Harrison with the Beatles, some might argue he had it rough there as a songwriter, some others, including myself simply may think that John and Paul were better.
« Last Edit: May 18th, 2017, 09:07am by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #17 on: May 18th, 2017, 10:29am »

I'm not saying that it can't be as you say--just that we don't know one way or the other.

It's not uncommon to be influenced by opinions. We are influenced by what we watch on TV, by what our friends say, etc.

For example, when Phil was unpopular in the 90s and universally hated, my opinion was different than what it is now. I only admitted to liking his first two albums. My opinion has changed now partly because of age, but also because it's not the "in thing" to hate Phil anymore so I am more free to admit my tastes.
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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #18 on: May 18th, 2017, 3:12pm »

on May 18th, 2017, 07:10am, Fabrizio wrote:
Again, it depends on how you choose to see it, personally I hardly consider it 'dismissive'. Steve sumbmitted some songs, the others didn't like them or thought there were better songs, that's about it, hardly dismissive imo.
Incidentally I think they were right, much as I like Steve's playing I never rated him highly as songwriter, still don't, also remember that he started writing quite late and what he contributed to Genesis is imo still some of the best stuff he did but he wanted 25% of the album and that is not a great idea.
As for Phil's opinion, I think he must at least be credited with the ability to make up his own mind.


Couldn't have started writing that late. He was the first to release a solo album after all...
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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #19 on: May 18th, 2017, 3:21pm »

on May 18th, 2017, 3:12pm, Yild4Genesis wrote:
Couldn't have started writing that late. He was the first to release a solo album after all...
wink

Up to SEBTP he never thought of himself as a writer, he said it himself quite a number of times in several interviews. Whether this was due to lack of self-confidence, lack of intrest or pehaps the fact that he joined a group that had already a group of writers I don't know but it's quite established. Things might have changed with the Lamb due to the fact perhaps that it was a double album and everyone was encouraged to pitch in.
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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #20 on: May 18th, 2017, 7:49pm »

on May 17th, 2017, 9:36pm, ftf wrote:
Diva? The central heating plumbing, chicken keeping, garden tending, campervan driving, keyboard player? .. no.

Watch Come rain or shine, or the Mama documentary, 3 extraordinary guys creating great music, eating sausage and tomato on toast, drinking Mateus Rose, and having a ball.

In their younger days, they were all less mature, more prolific/creative, and there were more songwriters trying to get their bits into 40 minutes of vinyl. That's going to lead to debates.

Having good quality control is what makes a good record, if you had to choose between Octopus's garden and The long and winding road, should you choose the former because it's fairer? Should you lie about which is your favourite track 35 years later when asked? The lamb has some strong bits, some weak bits, is too long, has a crap cover, and after all these years I still haven't got a clue what the story is about.

Somehow Tony has become the whipping boy since his comments in the famous documentary have been blown out of all proportion, mostly due to the misunderstanding of English humour/irony. Friends and colleagues often have digs at each other, there is no malice behind it.

The comment about Phil is a joke. If it isn't obvious, there's a beaming smile at the end of the sentence just in case.

Tony and Mike are the backbone of the group

Peter and Steve left 4 decades ago, of their own accord - it's a little odd for fans to still be holding a grudge about it after so long.

No Tony, no Genesis, no forum.



I completely agree & this is how I reacted to Tony when I first saw Sum Of The Parts. I knew nothing about him but I got his dry humour at once. If you are married to an Englishman it's easy to spot. People should also watch him accept his Prog Rock award from Peter; he is hilarious. '12th best keyboards player? Who the f*k were the other 11'? He is also fascinating to watch in Come Rain Or Come Shine. He's a very talented man.

« Last Edit: May 18th, 2017, 7:55pm by FeelItComing » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #21 on: May 19th, 2017, 04:08am »

on May 18th, 2017, 08:48am, Fabrizio wrote:
So it couldn't just be a case where Phil thought that Steve's songs weren't as 'good' as Mike's and Tony's in that moment? I cannot know obviously but it seems to me all Genesis members were always quite clear about what they llike or else, it might lead to frictions within a band but I believe it's the only healthy way to go about it, otherwise you simply allocate 25% of the record to each member which I don't really think is smart.
Look at George Harrison with the Beatles, some might argue he had it rough there as a songwriter, some others, including myself simply may think that John and Paul were better.


My guess is Steve's problem was only a certain type of his musical ideas were accepted. He had a fair share in Wind and Wuthering (middle part of Eleventh Earl, Blood on the rooftops, Unquiet Slumbers, first half of In that quiet Earth) and Tony praised Entangled and Blood On The Rooftops, yet Steve could never win the others for stuff like Please Don't Touch or A Tower Struck Down. They already frowned on his contributions to Moonlit Knight and Dance On A Volcano. So there you go, he constantly had to hold back his wilder side and it is understandable it became a frustrating situation for him.
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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #22 on: May 19th, 2017, 1:09pm »

When I see or read the interviews I'm under the impression that all of them were at one point or another quite clear about what they didn't like or in their opinion went wrong.
Peter got tired of the chorus of I know what I like but liked his bits, he didn't like the others' lyrics, he thought the keyboards solos were too much.
Phil didn't like Peter's costumes, the way they got in the way of the music, how basically Peter ruined The Battle of Epping Forest with the lyrics the fact they never seem to be edgy enough.
Steve didn't appreciate being buried in the final mix, the fact that his songs didn't make the final cut, feeling constantly like junior member.
Mike didn't like the lyrics to Watcher of the skies and the way it developed, same with Dancing with the Moolight Knight.
Tony was no different, perhaps less diplomatic, if he saw or heard something he didn't like he just said so but I think they all shared some sort of common respect and admiration which allowed them to speak their mind freely without being personal, resentful or jealous.
« Last Edit: May 19th, 2017, 1:10pm by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #23 on: May 19th, 2017, 2:58pm »

on May 19th, 2017, 04:08am, Schrottrocker wrote:
They already frowned on his contributions to Moonlit Knight and Dance On A Volcano.

They did?
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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #24 on: May 19th, 2017, 4:08pm »

on May 19th, 2017, 1:09pm, Fabrizio wrote:
When I see or read the interviews I'm under the impression that all of them were at one point or another quite clear about what they didn't like or in their opinion went wrong.
Peter got tired of the chorus of I know what I like but liked his bits, he didn't like the others' lyrics, he thought the keyboards solos were too much.
Phil didn't like Peter's costumes, the way they got in the way of the music, how basically Peter ruined The Battle of Epping Forest with the lyrics the fact they never seem to be edgy enough.
Steve didn't appreciate being buried in the final mix, the fact that his songs didn't make the final cut, feeling constantly like junior member.
Mike didn't like the lyrics to Watcher of the skies and the way it developed, same with Dancing with the Moolight Knight.
Tony was no different, perhaps less diplomatic, if he saw or heard something he didn't like he just said so but I think they all shared some sort of common respect and admiration which allowed them to speak their mind freely without being personal, resentful or jealous.


That's life in a band though, isn't it? Five guys all with differing views coming together to make something special but still five individuals ....
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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #25 on: May 19th, 2017, 4:21pm »

on May 19th, 2017, 4:08pm, Yild4Genesis wrote:
That's life in a band though, isn't it? Five guys all with differing views coming together to make something special but still five individuals ....

I agree completely and I also think that Genesis dealt with it very graciously. Members defected, there were clear shifts of balance if not power within the band and never a bad word. Compared to other bands....That said, they had their opinions and voiced them clearly which I think it's ok. I don't think Tony made louder noises than the others though
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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #26 on: May 19th, 2017, 5:39pm »

on May 19th, 2017, 4:21pm, Fabrizio wrote:
I don't think Tony made louder noises than the others though


Well, not in public but behind closed doors?

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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #27 on: May 19th, 2017, 6:08pm »

Now, THAT might very well be the case smiley But so was Peter apparently and surprisingly. Who knew?
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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #28 on: May 20th, 2017, 08:32am »

on May 19th, 2017, 2:58pm, Fabrizio wrote:
They did?


Tony said repeatedly he is not fond of Moonlit Knight; and about DOAV I don't remember who said it, I think Phil and Mike - they stated that instrumental second half was too much showing off, the kind of stuff they didn't want Genesis to become.
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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #29 on: May 20th, 2017, 09:06am »

on May 20th, 2017, 08:32am, Schrottrocker wrote:
Tony said repeatedly he is not fond of Moonlit Knight; and about DOAV I don't remember who said it, I think Phil and Mike - they stated that instrumental second half was too much showing off, the kind of stuff they didn't want Genesis to become.

But that was not Steve's doing, not entirely at least. What I remember from their comments in particular about DWTMK is that they got in he studio, feeling apprehensive because it was the first time without Peter and one of the first if not the first thing they knocked off was DWTMK which reassured everybody, they still had it.
Steve wasn't even there in the early sessions, he was recording his album which to this day I find odd.
He obviously contributed when he got in but I trust that if there had been anything the others didn't like it would have been discarded.
« Last Edit: May 20th, 2017, 09:14am by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

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