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peki
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xx mikes 12 string /baritone bass guitar
« Thread started on: Mar 30th, 2016, 09:28am »

Hi again!
Does anyone know how mikes doubleneck 12 str/ baritone guitar was tuned?
Low E? And srting gauges?
I' making a dblnck inspired by mikes microfrets/rick guitar, would appreciate info.

The guitar can be seen on my faceb page, pekisguitarsnparts.

/cheers
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xx Re: mikes 12 string /baritone bass guitar
« Reply #1 on: Mar 30th, 2016, 7:07pm »

I can't find your fb page huh Did Mike really ever use a baritone guitar? I am surprised to hear that. Though then again I was indeed wondering about his 8-string bass he used, I wonder what kind it was and in what songs he used it.
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xx Re: mikes 12 string /baritone bass guitar
« Reply #2 on: Mar 30th, 2016, 11:14pm »

Hi!
I was refrering to the doubleneck guitar used on the lamb record and tour.
A 12 string top, and a converted microfrets baritone at the bottom neck. And the low end neck, was a 6 string bass neck, like the fender VI bass tuned e to e although an octave lower than a regular 6 str guitar.

try pekis guitars n parts and service, or peki jansson on fb. #pekisguitarsnparts on instagram

thanks for replying

cheers

/peki
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xx Re: mikes 12 string /baritone bass guitar
« Reply #3 on: Mar 31st, 2016, 7:07pm »

Peki,

Mike used a baritone Micro-Frets Signature model as the basis for his Bass Guitar for the Lamb/first part of TRICK tour.

He used this guitar in the studio as well for both albums.

He tuned it like a standard guitar but only an octave down. The bridge had to be moved to accommodate the longer bass strings but the real beauty of this guitar was the "Micro Frets" part of the neck. The frets are very very LOW and as such create little to no noise sliding between notes (think Counting out Time). Also, the frets are closer together than a regular bass which allowed Mike to do some wild BARRE playing (think of the bass break right before the synth solo of CAGE). But the strings were also very close together which makes this guitar a bear to play.

I actually have a MF Signature baritone that I too converted into a six string bass. (I have sampled this and use it in a lot of GENESIS tracks that I try to recreate). I would say that this instrument is my prized possession since I know of only 3 others in the world. The Musical Box bassist has one (converted into a double neck). Mike's original was still at the barn in storage the last I checked but it now has 2 hum bucker pickups added from the TRICK album). The third one I am aware of is a guy in KENTUCKY USA that owns all three Signature models (standard 6 string, 4 string bass and the baritone). He will never let his go and if he did, his price would be crazy and you would probably have to buy all three guitars and promise him that they would always stay a set. You can hear this bass guitar on my COT recreation here if interested:

https://soundcloud.com/jimk-1/lldom-counting-out-time

Mike used some type of FENDER cab with an Acoustic Amp head for the LAMB studio sessions along with his graphic equalizer. The double neck in essence made his RICK 360-12 a solid body 12 string, thus the unique sound on the LAMB. Mike did use his 360-12 on a few songs on the LAMB... I believe that both In the Rapids and IT are played on the hollow body 12 string. Compare the 12 string sound of those 2 songs with the 12 string sound of Supernatural or Scree which are both played on the solid body.

Prior to the Lamb, mike used his RICK double neck in the studio and on stage. Going way back he used a WALLACE bass amp live. I can't get anybody that remembers what Mike used in the studio for those early albums as far as amplification goes.

Hopefully, this bloviated response has helped to answer your questions.

Thanks,
Jim

PS - to really help you out, Mike used FLAT WOUND bass strings on his SHORT SCALE MF bass (I don't remember how I know this but take it to the bank), If you are building a double neck, the MF pickups are a very important part of Mikes sound, that are actually single coil (made by D'Armond),very thin sounding pickups but are part of the alchemy of Mike's sound.

You can email me directly with any more questions you may have concerning this period of GENESIS... I don't have all the answers but have picked up a lot of info over the years on this, our favorite PROG ROCK band.
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xx Re: mikes 12 string /baritone bass guitar
« Reply #4 on: Apr 1st, 2016, 03:01am »

Thanks Jim.

Facinating reading this stuff for us musos and indeed anyone who has an interest in such things.

Hope you are well.

Best wishes

John
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xx Re: mikes 12 string /baritone bass guitar
« Reply #5 on: Apr 1st, 2016, 05:51am »

Hi and thanks for the reply on the forum!

Much appreciated info on mikes guitar and gear. Funny when you realize that after starting the build on the guitar with the intent on building a copy, the more you learn about the instrument the farther away you land from your goal. Now it seems like itīs a build inspired by mikes lldob twin neck.

However some questions pussels me, mike first pic double neck 12/bass is stated to be a 360/12 + the bass side. To me it looks more like a 600 series upper body shape but still hollow as the 360 bodyhuh To my knowledge there are no holly 600 series rickenbackers, or…?

My build is like follows, upper body 360 hollowed and bass side solid lower part of a rick 4001 shape. Pickups on 12 str, a gretsch type in the bridge pos and a teisco gold foil in the mid pos, no neck pu at the moment. The baritone/bass side has two p90:s. Will consider wapping to a dīarmond type of pu for the baritone side and ricks for the 12 string eventually.

Necks are switchable to mono output via a on/on switch, tele style controls vol and tone separate for each neck.
Fretboard on 12 is a gibson scale and baritone is a 29,6 inch scale. String gauges are for the baritone a set of fender VII bass set, sort of.. slightly heavier though, 12 string is a regular 10 set.

Next project will be the 12/bass rick of mikes…

mikes gear page on your fantastic lamb midi page did not open on my computer but i guess the info is listed in your post...

/peki

ps loved the soundcloud clips… smiley

tried to send email but adress is not recognized.
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xx Re: mikes 12 string /baritone bass guitar
« Reply #6 on: Apr 1st, 2016, 06:01am »

Here is a link to my fbpage with some pics.

https://www.facebook.com/PekisGuitarsPartsAndService/
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xx Re: mikes 12 string /baritone bass guitar
« Reply #7 on: Apr 1st, 2016, 11:54am »

I agree this is fascinating, go ahead guys! smiley Crazy, if you consider this "baritone bass" plus the fact Mike used the weirdest alternate tunings on his 12-string, he was really far from playing regular instruments. Progressive in the literal meaning.
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xx Re: mikes 12 string /baritone bass guitar
« Reply #8 on: Apr 1st, 2016, 1:09pm »

So, good question on the RICK side of a solid body. Actually, the body of the guitar was custom made (the MF body extended... which is semi hollow on its own but not vents... Just a big gap between the top and bottom pieces of wood).

The 12 string side was just the neck and the hardware from the RICK (makes me wonder how Mike got the neck off the rick).

I have the rick 12 string and the MF 6 string but lack the guts to have them put together.

One last piece of info: The Micro Frets guitar weighs in at about 4 pounds (not sure how this translates into stones) so the double neck for the Lamb probably didn't weigh more than 10 lbs. My 4 string bass RICK weighs about 12 lbs on its own.

Jim

PS - I have a 1965 Rick 450-12 that I use for Mike's 12 string sound (it has the toaster pickups). Rumor has it that Mike once owned this guitar and I did ask him if he used it to build the double neck and he said no, it was the 360 on the Lamb double neck.

PSS- John W, I am doing well (hope you are as well). I have retired and moved to FLORIDA and have a great setup for my music studio and have been fooling around with Jethro Tull stuff as a diversion. John Burns also engineered the Aqualung album and it was recorded in Basing street using the Helios board so it kinda still is Genesis related.
« Last Edit: Apr 1st, 2016, 1:27pm by jkleban » User IP Logged

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xx Re: mikes 12 string /baritone bass guitar
« Reply #9 on: Apr 13th, 2016, 09:28am »

Hi Again!

Starting on the next dblneck build, trying to get the fact right before cutting logs ... ;-)

Mikes first double neck, the rick with 12 and bass neck, ainīt that a 620 upper body and a 4001 bass at the bottom.

All info suggests a 360/12 for the upper half but the guitar is clearly a 600 series body, cresting wave cut but HOLLOWED as a 360 huh

Please correct me, but 600 series bodys are solid, right!?

cheers!


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xx Re: mikes 12 string /baritone bass guitar
« Reply #10 on: Apr 16th, 2016, 2:04pm »

I am not sure what the source 12 string was but it could have been a 660-12 based on the crest shape. I think that Dick Knight might have created custom bodies for the early double necks and if true, the 12 string probably started as a 360.

I do believe that a RICK 450-12 might have been used for the 12 string on the LAMB double neck. But that is mostly because of the NECK (dots instead of triangle fret markers) and head stock as well as the crest of the solid body 12 string side of the LAMB guitar.

So, if you do find out more definitively, please let us know.



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xx Re: mikes 12 string /baritone bass guitar
« Reply #11 on: Apr 18th, 2016, 02:45am »

on Apr 16th, 2016, 2:04pm, jkleban wrote:
I am not sure what the source 12 string was but it could have been a 660-12 based on the crest shape. I think that Dick Knight might have created custom bodies for the early double necks and if true, the 12 string probably started as a 360.

I do believe that a RICK 450-12 might have been used for the 12 string on the LAMB double neck. But that is mostly because of the NECK (dots instead of triangle fret markers) and head stock as well as the crest of the solid body 12 string side of the LAMB guitar.

So, if you do find out more definitively, please let us know.




You do have to wonder why anyone would do a cut and shut on two guitars like this - a proper luthier would have done this somewhat differently.
Our bass player Martin is a luthier and now working on his new doubleneck - but it will be "proper" not a car crash! smiley
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xx Re: mikes 12 string /baritone bass guitar
« Reply #12 on: Apr 19th, 2016, 08:00am »

Alan,

On the first double neck I think that the bodies were chopped and pieced together. I think the electronics are original. The bridges and saddles NOT.

The LAMB 12 string is definitely a new body (perhaps pieced and glued) as some old body and some new body, the RICK double string looks like a CHOP on the body as well. I think the issue with the RICK 12 string neck (solid thru the body) necessitated this hybrid approach.

But Mike did tell me that the 12 string in the LAMB double neck was effectively a solid body guitar. Makes me speculate that the 12 string neck thru the body was used with WINGS added to the top and bottom of the body. Perhaps the neck section is what would fall apart on MIKE? So, for the LAMB, my guess is either a 450-12 or a 660-12 for the 12 string. The DOT neck has me leaning toward the 450-12 string.

Jim
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xx Re: mikes 12 string /baritone bass guitar
« Reply #13 on: Jun 19th, 2016, 09:08am »

on Mar 30th, 2016, 7:07pm, Schrottrocker wrote:
I can't find your fb page ??? Did Mike really ever use a baritone guitar? I am surprised to hear that. Though then again I was indeed wondering about his 8-string bass he used, I wonder what kind it was and in what songs he used it.


The 8-string is a Hagstrom. He used it on the Wind & Wuthering tour for "I Know What I Like"... but that seems to be relatively common knowledge. Here, have an article:

http://www.shergold.co.uk/beat77.html#shergold

Now, in the studio, he did use it for one song, but it was not "I Know What I Like." I was tempted to turn this into an exhilarating game of "Guess Which Song Has An 8-String In It" (which is my second-favorite game, right after "Jedi Power Battles" for Playstation), but then I realized that nobody here has any reason to believe that I have inside knowledge. Or at least they shouldn't, because I really don't have any inside knowledge. I do, however, have some cheap audio manipulation tricks and a fledgling Youtube channel.

Here's Mike on the 8-string. It sounds magnificent.

https://youtu.be/vMSAGhjnCRg
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xx Re: mikes 12 string /baritone bass guitar
« Reply #14 on: Jun 19th, 2016, 09:55am »

A bit off topic, Jimi Hendrix used the 8 string Hagstrom as well. Another NAME THAT TUNE discovery. Once you know what song it is, the guitar is quite obvious.

So, I don't know that song Mike used it on in the studio? Was it post or part of the Gabriel era?

Jim

PS - I clicked on the link and saw it was ONE FOR THE VINE, my bad. I am not a big post Gab fan so haven't spent that much time listening as compared the GAB era tunes.
« Last Edit: Jun 19th, 2016, 09:58am by jkleban » User IP Logged

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