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lilywhitelilith
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xx Any keyboardists play Chamber of 32 Doors?
« Thread started on: Apr 17th, 2013, 10:33pm »

Hello all!

Just wondering if anybody here has played the keyboard parts to Chamber of 32 Doors. I've figured out all of the chords and everything, I just have trouble with the different sounds and switching between them, making it sound seamless. Any advice would be appreciated!

Cheers smiley
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Piers
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xx Re: Any keyboardists play Chamber of 32 Doors?
« Reply #1 on: Apr 18th, 2013, 02:38am »

Hello,

Yes, I've played this one, back when I did the whole of the Lamb with ReG about 8 years ago! I had a run through last year, because it's one of my favourite tracks, but don't play it regularly.

When you say you have trouble switching sounds, I guess the first question is what gear are you using? How many separate keyboards?

For this song I use two, my Kurzweil for RMI, Mellotron strings and Grand Piano, and my Hammond XB-1 for (you guessed it) Hammond. The Hammond is single manual (only the one keyboard) but can be set with a split point to give you upper and lower tones across the keyboard.

The Kurzweil basically only needs two setups, the first is a split for RMI and Tron, and the second for Piano. Switching between them is pretty easy as the changes mostly happen while playing Hammond.

The Hammond needs two registrations, one rich tone for the verses ("At the top of the stairs there's hundreds of people..."), and a second muted registration ("the rich man stands in front of me").

The trick to getting the right tone in this section is that the muted registration requires different drawbars for the upper and lower manuals, one very dull that's playing chords, and the other a little brighter to pick out the single note line that stands out. When you get to "I need someone to believe in..." you can hear how the tone is much softer, at that point the Hammond is being played on only the duller manual. So, the Hammond has three distinct tones, which means you can't leave it in one fixed registration for the whole song.

Both keyboards have the ability to switch from one sound to the next seamlessly. That is, I can play an RMI chord on the Kurzweil, hold it with a foot pedal, press the patch change button and when I next touch the keys get a grand piano out. The Hammond can't 'preload' a new registration, so if you're holding a chord and change patch the tome will change immediately.

So...

The only place I have difficulty changing sounds is at the phrase "The rich man stands...". At this point I've got one hand playing rich Hammond and the other playing RMI organ. I have to get both hands to the Hammond and press the patch change button for the dull tone a split second before hitting the next chord. And, all of this while operating volume and sustain pedals with my feet. It works, but it needs precision coordination!

Hope that's useful!

Piers.

P.S. Don't try and play vibes as well, leave them to your drummer!
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xx Re: Any keyboardists play Chamber of 32 Doors?
« Reply #2 on: Apr 18th, 2013, 06:30am »

As Piers said it will depend on what equipment you have. I use my 1 Combi within my Korg Kronos for this with all the different sounds Split/Layerd over 3 Keyboards including the Kronos. I am pretty sure I use an Oboe drawbar setting on the CX3 engine for the verses and Mellotron Samples for the Strings. The beauty of using the Kronos is the User streaming of samples from the SSD so you can use Gigabytes of samples wink
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xx Re: Any keyboardists play Chamber of 32 Doors?
« Reply #3 on: Apr 18th, 2013, 3:28pm »

on Apr 18th, 2013, 02:38am, Piers wrote:
Hello,

Yes, I've played this one, back when I did the whole of the Lamb with ReG about 8 years ago! I had a run through last year, because it's one of my favourite tracks, but don't play it regularly.

When you say you have trouble switching sounds, I guess the first question is what gear are you using? How many separate keyboards?

For this song I use two, my Kurzweil for RMI, Mellotron strings and Grand Piano, and my Hammond XB-1 for (you guessed it) Hammond. The Hammond is single manual (only the one keyboard) but can be set with a split point to give you upper and lower tones across the keyboard.

The Kurzweil basically only needs two setups, the first is a split for RMI and Tron, and the second for Piano. Switching between them is pretty easy as the changes mostly happen while playing Hammond.

The Hammond needs two registrations, one rich tone for the verses ("At the top of the stairs there's hundreds of people..."), and a second muted registration ("the rich man stands in front of me").

The trick to getting the right tone in this section is that the muted registration requires different drawbars for the upper and lower manuals, one very dull that's playing chords, and the other a little brighter to pick out the single note line that stands out. When you get to "I need someone to believe in..." you can hear how the tone is much softer, at that point the Hammond is being played on only the duller manual. So, the Hammond has three distinct tones, which means you can't leave it in one fixed registration for the whole song.

Both keyboards have the ability to switch from one sound to the next seamlessly. That is, I can play an RMI chord on the Kurzweil, hold it with a foot pedal, press the patch change button and when I next touch the keys get a grand piano out. The Hammond can't 'preload' a new registration, so if you're holding a chord and change patch the tome will change immediately.

So...

The only place I have difficulty changing sounds is at the phrase "The rich man stands...". At this point I've got one hand playing rich Hammond and the other playing RMI organ. I have to get both hands to the Hammond and press the patch change button for the dull tone a split second before hitting the next chord. And, all of this while operating volume and sustain pedals with my feet. It works, but it needs precision coordination!

Hope that's useful!

Piers.

P.S. Don't try and play vibes as well, leave them to your drummer!


Wow, thank you for your extremely informative reply, Piers! My keyboard setup is as follows: Roland XP-80 on top, and Alesis QS8 on the bottom. My plan is to have a hammond organ sound on the bottom, and a mellotron/piano sound on the top.

I have a few more specific questions also:
What do you use the RMI/mellotron split for on your Kurzweil?
Do you use both hands for the mellotron during the beginning sequence? Or does the left hand use an organ sound?

Also, I am trying to determine which section requires which sounds, please correct me if I've made any mistakes:

Opening section: Mellotron
"At the top of the stairs...": Bright organ
"The rich man stands...": Dull organ (with volume pedal?)
"I'd rather trust a countryman...": Piano
"But down here...": Bright organ (volume pedal?)
"Brings me back, back here again": Mellotron
"The priest and the magician...": Bright organ
"My father to the left of me...": Dull organ (volume pedal?)
"I'd rather trust a man who doesn't shout...": Piano
"Back inside this chamber of...": Piano

Thanks again for all your (and andycrawler's) help, it is much appreciated smiley
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xx Re: Any keyboardists play Chamber of 32 Doors?
« Reply #4 on: Apr 18th, 2013, 6:06pm »

on Apr 18th, 2013, 3:28pm, lilywhitelilith wrote:
Wow, thank you for your extremely informative reply, Piers! My keyboard setup is as follows: Roland XP-80 on top, and Alesis QS8 on the bottom. My plan is to have a hammond organ sound on the bottom, and a mellotron/piano sound on the top.

I have a few more specific questions also:
What do you use the RMI/mellotron split for on your Kurzweil?
Do you use both hands for the mellotron during the beginning sequence? Or does the left hand use an organ sound?

Also, I am trying to determine which section requires which sounds, please correct me if I've made any mistakes:

Opening section: Mellotron
"At the top of the stairs...": Bright organ
"The rich man stands...": Dull organ (with volume pedal?)
"I'd rather trust a countryman...": Piano
"But down here...": Bright organ (volume pedal?)
"Brings me back, back here again": Mellotron
"The priest and the magician...": Bright organ
"My father to the left of me...": Dull organ (volume pedal?)
"I'd rather trust a man who doesn't shout...": Piano
"Back inside this chamber of...": Piano

Thanks again for all your (and andycrawler's) help, it is much appreciated smiley

Hello,

It sounds like you're not familiar enough with the sound of the RMI Electrapiano yet. It's used all over the Lamb album, often layered with Mellotron as in this track, and frequently through the MXR Phase 100. For this song it's used in 'organ' mode, which modified the envelope to reduce the initial attack and greatly lengthen the sustain time.

At the start of the song you can (believe me!) distinctly hear the Mellotron strings on one side of the stereo and the RMI on the other. Between them they make up the lush keyboard chord you hear, but they aren't playing the same notes within the chord, so you get some degree of counter movement between the two.

With regards the different sections, I play them as follows:

Intro - RMI and Tron Strings
"At the top of the stairs...": RMI and Hammond (rich)
"The rich man stands...": Hammond (dull, both manuals, as described above)
"I need someone..." Hammond (dull, just one manual)
"I'd rather trust a countryman...": Piano
"But down here...": RMI and Piano (just for these two chords!)
"I'm so alone with my fear..." RMI
"Brings me back, back here again": RMI and Mellotron
"The priest and the magician...": RMI and Hammond (rich)
"My father to the left of me...": Hammond (dull, both manuals)
"And I need..." Hammond (dull, just one manual)
"I'd rather trust a man who doesn't shout...": Piano
"Back inside this chamber of...": Piano

You've used the words "volume pedal?" with reference to the organ. In a word, yes, though I have to say it's a rather unnecessary question, as Tony used volume pedals all the time for those sounds which aren't naturally touch sensitive. That is, the Trons, Hammond and RMI are faded in and out in virtually every instance throughout the entire Genesis catalogue. I have four sustain pedals and three volume pedals under my keyboard rig, and my feet almost never touch the floor!

Note that depending on which mastering of the album you listen to, different parts will be more or less obvious. So for example, the two handed organ part I worked out off the Japanese mini-album sleeve version (1999?). Listening to the box set remasters they've pushed Steve's guitar line and Pete's vocals much higher in the mix, and the subtleties of the Hammond part are pretty much lost.

Piers.
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xx Re: Any keyboardists play Chamber of 32 Doors?
« Reply #5 on: Apr 18th, 2013, 6:26pm »

Hello again,

I thought I'd scan through my charts for The Lamb and look for other instances of layering the RMI. The two obvious examples are:

Fly on a Windshield - RMI and Tron strings through all the loud part, much of it playing identical parts, but with the odd chord where they play in different inversions.

The Lamia - Layered with Piano, Tron strings and Tron choirs

There are other tracks where the RMI is played with one hand, and another keyboard (Organ or Tron mostly) played with the other, like Grand Parade or Colony of the Slippermen, and of course there are plenty of instances of it on its own (Carpet Crawl!).

Piers.
« Last Edit: Apr 19th, 2013, 03:06am by Piers » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Any keyboardists play Chamber of 32 Doors?
« Reply #6 on: Apr 19th, 2013, 6:44pm »

Being a true dedication to the real instruments kinda guy, I think that the advice you got from the real keyboard players here is spot on.... just a couple of other points of 32 doors...

Steve does his SOUND LIKE ANOTHER KEYBOARD layering on this song as well, so in addition to leaving the vibes and chimes to the drummer, don't try to include STEVE's notes in the chords.

Also, I think that the RMI is going thru the FENDER BLENDER on this one as well.


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xx Re: Any keyboardists play Chamber of 32 Doors?
« Reply #7 on: May 24th, 2015, 06:06am »

We do Chamber in Genesisn't. I use keyboard controllers triggering the sounds in 2 patches in Mainstage 3.

Patch 1 has the main intro chords layered on my right and the 2 organ sounds split on the left. Patch 2 has piano on most of the left with vibrophone at the top, with the "down here" rmi on the right. I switch between them using the C1 key on the right controller.

Whilst I bow to the more experienced comments above, the only change I make is the tubular bell sound after "...take me for a ride..." etc. Which I play on the third controller above the left.

I tried doing Firth of Fifth on 2 boards and found it a challenge.

All the best,

David
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xx Re: Any keyboardists play Chamber of 32 Doors?
« Reply #8 on: May 24th, 2015, 10:14am »

on May 24th, 2015, 06:06am, jumbojock wrote:
I tried doing Firth of Fifth on 2 boards and found it a challenge.


Cheers man, I play FOF on one keyboard and 'Challenge' is my middle name. grin
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xx Re: Any keyboardists play Chamber of 32 Doors?
« Reply #9 on: Oct 8th, 2015, 08:58am »

on May 24th, 2015, 10:14am, Schrottrocker wrote:
Cheers man, I play FOF on one keyboard and 'Challenge' is my middle name. grin


What keyboard do you use to handle that?
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xx Re: Any keyboardists play Chamber of 32 Doors?
« Reply #10 on: Oct 8th, 2015, 5:37pm »

on Oct 8th, 2015, 08:58am, tonybanksfan wrote:


What keyboard do you use to handle that?


Don't know what Schrottrocker uses, but I use a Korg Oasys only for all FoF keyboard parts.

It's just a case of programming different combis with various instruments/split points and then advancing to each combi as required for a given section of the song.

I'm sure there are plenty of keyboards out there capable of this.
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xx Re: Any keyboardists play Chamber of 32 Doors?
« Reply #11 on: Oct 9th, 2015, 09:07am »

on Oct 8th, 2015, 08:58am, tonybanksfan wrote:


What keyboard do you use to handle that?


I was doing this with my Kronos X73.
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