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Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by onetwothree on Dec 8th, 2017, 2:32pm

Indirectly inspired by the thread about Man Of Our Times vs. Misunderstanding...

There are a handful of Genesis tracks credited as being written by one member of the band, all between TRICK and ABACAB, and all by Tony, Mike or Phil. How do you rank each guy's solo compositions?

Here are my rankings. Tony's, especially, are tough for me to rank, and might be ranked differently on another day.

Tony
1. Mad Man Moon
2. Many Too Many
3. Undertow
4. The Lady Lies
5. Afterglow
6. Me And Sarah Jane
7. One For The Vine
8. A Trick Of The Tail
9. Heathaze
10. The Day The Light Went Out
11. All In A Mouse's Night
12. Evidence Of Autumn
13. Burning Rope
14. Cul-De-Sac
15. Guide Vocal

Mike
1. Man Of Our Times (yes, that's right!)
2. Say It's Alright Joe
3. Deep In The Motherlode
4. Like It Or Not
5. Your Own Special Way
6. Alone Tonight
7. Open Door
8. Snowbound

Phil
1. Please Don't Ask
2. Misunderstanding
3. Man On The Corner


Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Kerry95 on Dec 9th, 2017, 07:04am

the more phil dismisses burning rope, the more i like it.

mike's most "perfect" song is deep in the motherlode, but i like man of our times better.

as for phil's songs, misunderstanding is a guilty pleasure for me, i guess.

tony:
1. the lady lies
2. burning rope
3. me and sarah jane
4. one for the vine
5. evidence of automn
6. many too many
7. cul-de-sac
8. heathaze
9. undertow
10. afterglow
11. a trick of the tail
12. all in a mouse's night
13. mad man moon
14. guide vocal
15. the day the light went out

mike:
1. man of our times
2. deep in the motherlode
3. say it's alright, joe
4. your own special way
5. snowbound
6. open door
7. alone tonight
8- like it or not

phil:
1. misunderstanding
2. man on the corner
3. please don't ask
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Kerry95 on Dec 9th, 2017, 08:17am

mike is very good at contributing ideas to songs, but not as good at writing individual songs...
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Backdrifter on Dec 9th, 2017, 3:51pm

TB - my favourites are, in no order, Afterglow, Many Too Many, Me & Sarah Jane. My least favourites are Mouse's, MMM, Heathaze.

Of MRs, MOOT is probably the best, DITM is ok, and for PC Misunderstanding and MOTC are ok.
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Chaim on Dec 10th, 2017, 03:29am

on Dec 9th, 2017, 07:04am, Kerry95 wrote:
the more phil dismisses burning rope, the more i like it.



Could you post links to interviews where Phil does this? I'd be interested. At some point in the 90's they played some Genesis tracks to Phil in a drummer magazine and he was asked to comment. About Burning Rope he said something like "Tony's gonna hate me for saying this, but it was because of songs like this that I left Genesis." laugh He also said that he probably played all that tom stuff in the intro because he felt the song was so boring and he tried to add some excitement.
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Backdrifter on Dec 10th, 2017, 04:38am

I hadn't heard that before but I'm not keen on BR myself. It's a particular kind of somewhat overwrought song Banks seemed to do at the time. It's why I infinitely prefer the simplicity of Afterglow and the leaner, tauter, spacier feel of M&SJ.
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Merryman72 on Dec 10th, 2017, 05:19am

Tony
1. Mad Man Moon
2. Afterglow
3. Me And Sarah Jane
4. Cul-De-Sac
5. Undertow
6. One For The Vine
7. Heathaze
8. The Lady Lies
9. Burning Rope
10. A Trick Of The Tail
11. All In A Mouse's Night
12. Many Too Many
13. Evidence Of Autumn
14. The Day The Light Went Out

Mike
1. Deep In The Motherlode
2. Say It's Alright Joe
3. Man Of Our Times
4. Like It Or Not
5. Your Own Special Way
6. Open Door
7. Snowbound
8. Alone Tonight

Phil
1. Please Don't Ask
2. Man On The Corner
3. Misunderstanding

Quite difficult, but Mike clearly has the weakest list of the three. I absolutely love "Motherlode" and "Joe", but the rest are merely good or OK. Phil's three songs are all great. And Tony's songs are all pretty excellent, apart from "The Day the Light Went Out". In my opinion!
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Fabrizio on Dec 10th, 2017, 06:36am

on Dec 10th, 2017, 03:29am, Chaim wrote:
About Burning Rope he said something like "Tony's gonna hate me for saying this, but it was because of songs like this that I left Genesis." laugh He also said that he probably played all that tom stuff in the intro because he felt the song was so boring and he tried to add some excitement.

Well, understandable , considering his stellar contribution, in terms of songwriting, to ATTW3.
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Fabrizio on Dec 10th, 2017, 10:25am

on Dec 10th, 2017, 05:19am, Merryman72 wrote:
Mike clearly has the weakest list of the three


Vive la difference I guess but I truly, really beg to differ.
Btw, I know they are not officially credited to him alone but stuff like Ripples and FYFM are Mike's and imo great songs.
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Fabrizio on Dec 10th, 2017, 10:28am

on Dec 9th, 2017, 08:17am, Kerry95 wrote:
mike is very good at contributing ideas to songs, but not as good at writing individual songs...

At first, I thought you were being a bit too harsh on Mike but thinking about it you might have a point there. It is absolutely possible that he is more of a collaborative writer, even though he occasionally has some peaks of his own, imo.
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Merryman72 on Dec 10th, 2017, 12:11pm

on Dec 10th, 2017, 10:25am, Fabrizio wrote:
Vive la difference I guess but I truly, really beg to differ.
Btw, I know they are not officially credited to him alone but stuff like Ripples and FYFM are Mike's and imo great songs.


I'm not saying I don't rate Mike as a songwriter - far from it - but overall his list of solo compositions doesn't seem to hold up well when listed in this company. And yep, I adore Ripples and FYFM. However, this point:

on Dec 9th, 2017, 08:17am, Kerry95 wrote:
mike is very good at contributing ideas to songs, but not as good at writing individual songs...

on Dec 10th, 2017, 10:28am, Fabrizio wrote:
At first, I thought you were being a bit too harsh on Mike but thinking about it you might have a point there. It is absolutely possible that he is more of a collaborative writer, even though he occasionally has some peaks of his own, imo.


... is probably quite a good one, and I'm pretty sure is something that Mike has admitted himself. Didn't he have a co-writer for the vast majority of Mechanics songs?
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by onetwothree on Dec 11th, 2017, 07:17am

on Dec 10th, 2017, 03:29am, Chaim wrote:
About Burning Rope he said something like "Tony's gonna hate me for saying this, but it was because of songs like this that I left Genesis." He also said that he probably played all that tom stuff in the intro because he felt the song was so boring and he tried to add some excitement.

I'm not the biggest fan of BR, but I really don't agree with Phil's opinion of it!
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Fabrizio on Dec 11th, 2017, 09:21am

on Dec 11th, 2017, 07:17am, onetwothree wrote:
I'm not the biggest fan of BR, but I really don't agree with Phil's opinion of it!

Well, he is entitled to his opinion, isn't he? BR is really not Banks' at his best imo but I never appreciated when artists dump on their own band publicly and again: what did he have to offer that was better than BR?
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by HomeByTheSea on Dec 11th, 2017, 10:46am

on Dec 11th, 2017, 09:21am, Fabrizio wrote:
Well, he is entitled to his opinion, isn't he? BR is really not Banks' at his best imo but I never appreciated when artists dump on their own band publicly and again: what did he have to offer that was better than BR?


Misunderstanding! laugh
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Fabrizio on Dec 11th, 2017, 11:02am

on Dec 11th, 2017, 10:46am, HomeByTheSea wrote:
Misunderstanding! laugh

You Sir, are a provocateur ;-)
Anyway, as I am sure you are aware that Misunderstanding was on Duke, not on ATTW3 and......Well, I guess I made my feelings about that ....''song'' already clear. grin
Phil's contributions on ATTW3 were the lyrics to Scenes from a night's dream and the Ballad of big....Let's leave it at that.

Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by dgb01 on Dec 11th, 2017, 11:13am

I have some particular favourites from the lists.
Tony is undoubtely my favourite composer in Genesis, and these are my favourites of his:

1. Mad Man Moon
2. One For The Vine
3. The Lady Lies
4. Burning Rope
5. Guide Vocal.

From Mike:

1. Man Of Our Times
2. Deep In The Motherlode
3. Open Door

From Phil:

1. Please Don't Ask
2. In Too Deep (Tony said on the Invisible Tour documentary that Phil wrote it)
3. Man on The Corner

...and as for Misunderstanding, I hate it! Sorry wink
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Schrottrocker on Dec 11th, 2017, 11:47am

on Dec 10th, 2017, 12:11pm, Merryman72 wrote:
Didn't he have a co-writer for the vast majority of Mechanics songs?


The whole Mechanics project started off with Mike looking for songwriting partners because he thinks of himself as someone who has an easy time starting song ideas but a bad time finishing them. Once he had teamed up with B.A. Robertson and Chris Neil as a songwriting unit, they looked for musicians and singers to perform their songs. That's what the Mechanics were in the beginning, it says a lot about how Mike approaches writing songs. He also said Harlequin was the first ever song he wrote entirely on his own since Ant had left and Mike found it hard back then already to bring his initial song ideas to a full song. Regarding all this I wonder how he managed to write all the songs on Smallcreep on his own, he can do it if he wants to and that album turned out brilliant, he still seems to feel quite uncomfortable with it.
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by HomeByTheSea on Dec 12th, 2017, 07:13am

on Dec 11th, 2017, 11:02am, Fabrizio wrote:
You Sir, are a provocateur ;-)
Anyway, as I am sure you are aware that Misunderstanding was on Duke, not on ATTW3 and......Well, I guess I made my feelings about that ....''song'' already clear. grin
Phil's contributions on ATTW3 were the lyrics to Scenes from a night's dream and the Ballad of big....Let's leave it at that.


Just having some fun. On a serious note, I will say IMO, the writing on ATTWT really took a beating. That album is one of my least favorites. I will say once I heard some live versions on the Archive 2 set, I had a change of heart.
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Fabrizio on Dec 12th, 2017, 07:53am

on Dec 12th, 2017, 07:13am, HomeByTheSea wrote:
Just having some fun. On a serious note, I will say IMO, the writing on ATTWT really took a beating. That album is one of my least favorites. I will say once I heard some live versions on the Archive 2 set, I had a change of heart.

I agree on ATTW3. I think they were all a bit uninspired, coping in terms of sound with Steve's departure, Phil was having some issues on a personal level and still wasn't sure he wanted to be a singer or whether Genesis was the right place for him. He even considered joining The Who for a while. The album suffered for sure. Half of it doesn't do much for me and the rest is OK but not exactly stellar.
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by WutheringNights76 on Dec 12th, 2017, 8:14pm

Tony
1. One for the Vine
2. Mad Man Moon
3. Afterglow
4. The Lady Lies
5. Burning Rope
6. Undertow
7. Cul-de-sac
8. Many Too Many
9. Guide Vocal
10. All in a Mouse's Night
11. Heathaze
12. A Trick of the Tail
13. Evidence of Autumn
14. Me and Sarah Jane
15. The Day the Light Went Out

Mike
1. Deep in the Motherlode
2. Man of our Times
3. Say it's Alright Joe
4. Your Own Special Way
5. Snowbound
6. Alone Tonight
7. Open Door
8. Like it or Not

Phil
1. Please Don't Ask
2. Misunderstanding
3. Man on the Corner

Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Backdrifter on Dec 13th, 2017, 08:12am

on Dec 12th, 2017, 07:13am, HomeByTheSea wrote:
IMO, the writing on ATTWT really took a beating. That album is one of my least favorites. I will say once I heard some live versions on the Archive 2 set, I had a change of heart.


The funny thing about ATTWT is while it's also one of my least favourite too, it has two of my absolute favourite Genesis tracks on it, Down & Out and Many Too Many. But for me, apart from Undertow and Follow, they are so leagues ahead of the others it's embarrassing. In fact, two of the worst Genesis songs (in my view) are also on it - Snowbound and Scenes.
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by OldKingCole3 on Dec 13th, 2017, 09:15am

I'm not going to actually rank these, but I will say that every Tony Banks song would rank ahead of every Mike Rutherford song for me. Tony's stuff always resonates with me....Mike's stuff, not so much
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Fabrizio on Dec 13th, 2017, 09:20am

on Dec 13th, 2017, 08:12am, Backdrifter wrote:
The funny thing about ATTWT is while it's also one of my least favourite too, it has two of my absolute favourite Genesis tracks on it, Down & Out and Many Too Many. But for me, apart from Undertow and Follow, they are so leagues ahead of the others it's embarrassing. In fact, two of the worst Genesis songs (in my view) are also on it - Snowbound and Scenes.

I like Down&Out, not crazy about the lyrics but they are OK. I think, as a song it came a bit too early, I am sure Phil would have deliver it better on Duke. M2M is nice, so are Undertow and FYFM. I find Scenes and Ballad of Big extremely bad.
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Fabrizio on Dec 13th, 2017, 09:24am

on Dec 13th, 2017, 09:15am, OldKingCole3 wrote:
I'm not going to actually rank these, but I will say that every Tony Banks song would rank ahead of every Mike Rutherford song for me. Tony's stuff always resonates with me....Mike's stuff, not so much

Well, Tony's body of work stacks up quite nicelyl against the others'. He almost always nails it for me: on occasions some songs don't do much for me: Mouse, The lady lies or Domino for instance but I never have a WTF moment with him, just some ''Meh'' moments.
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Schrottrocker on Dec 13th, 2017, 6:39pm

Again, it's funny how different perception and likes can be. I prefer Scenes From A Night's Dream so much over Down and Out.
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Backdrifter on Dec 14th, 2017, 04:06am

on Dec 13th, 2017, 09:20am, Fabrizio wrote:
I like Down&Out, not crazy about the lyrics but they are OK. I think, as a song it came a bit too early, I am sure Phil would have deliver it better on Duke.


That's an interesting thought, it hadn't occurred to me before but you've got me thinking now. With the 'Duke sound' it could have been a stunner. Re the lyrics - I don't think there's a particularly good set of lyrics anywhere on that album.
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Backdrifter on Dec 14th, 2017, 04:42am

on Dec 13th, 2017, 6:39pm, Schrottrocker wrote:
Again, it's funny how different perception and likes can be. I prefer Scenes From A Night's Dream so much over Down and Out.


It's interesting isn't it. I'm sure you find it as odd that I much prefer D&O as I do that you prefer SFAND. I think these contrasts arise for a very positive reason, namely that they have such a range of styles within their work that even long-time dedicated fans have disagreements.

I recall you and I touched on this before, I think as part of a Lamb discussion. I said it's my favourite Genesis album and you said you bet I didn't like certain albums or songs and named some things off W&W and ATOTT and you were spot-on. My favourite Genesis stuff is usually the darker, edgier, harder areas, often the more un-Genesis-y ones. I can't get on with the twee stuff at all and Scenes encapsulates the very essence of twee Genesis that makes me cringe. If I were to play it - which I never do - I'd have to then immediately play The Waiting Room to blast away the intense sugariness!
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Backdrifter on Dec 14th, 2017, 05:07am

on Dec 13th, 2017, 09:24am, Fabrizio wrote:
Well, Tony's body of work stacks up quite nicelyl against the others'. He almost always nails it for me: on occasions some songs don't do much for me: Mouse, The lady lies or Domino for instance but I never have a WTF moment with him, just some ''Meh'' moments.


You mentioned Domino which reminds me that while the thread is about those tracks with solo writing credits there are other tracks that while they have group credits are generally known to be largely by one person. I have heard Domino is mainly Banks, ditto The Brazilian, Keep It Dark, Pigeons, Hold On My Heart, and the lyrics of Home though I'm not sure if that extends to the music too. PG-era ones I understand to be by him are Firth of Fifth, The Lamia, Riding The Scree, possibly In The Cage too?
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Fabrizio on Dec 14th, 2017, 06:39am

on Dec 14th, 2017, 04:06am, Backdrifter wrote:
That's an interesting thought, it hadn't occurred to me before but you've got me thinking now. With the 'Duke sound' it could have been a stunner. Re the lyrics - I don't think there's a particularly good set of lyrics anywhere on that album.

There's a different energy throughout Duke and Phil sings differently, he starts growling instead of using his falsetto a lot. A giant leap forward for him as a vocalist and I believe, a song like D&O would have greatly benefited from that.
As for the lyrics on the album: there are imo some truly bad ones; Case in point Scenes and Ballad of big, some are a bit too much business a usual for me and fall a bit flat: Motherlode, BR, The lady lies, some are just anonymous: D&O, Snowbound and Joe, some are nice MtM and FYFM which I think is perfect for that kind of song. I like Undertow personally. I find the contrast between the intimate, atmospheric bits and the more epic , philosophical parts quite interesting.
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Fabrizio on Dec 14th, 2017, 06:41am

on Dec 14th, 2017, 05:07am, Backdrifter wrote:
You mentioned Domino which reminds me that while the thread is about those tracks with solo writing credits there are other tracks that while they have group credits are generally known to be largely by one person. I have heard Domino is mainly Banks, ditto The Brazilian, Keep It Dark, Pigeons, Hold On My Heart, and the lyrics of Home though I'm not sure if that extends to the music too. PG-era ones I understand to be by him are Firth of Fifth, The Lamia, Riding The Scree, possibly In The Cage too?

I am not sure about in the Cage, I think it was a collaborative effort based on MIke's idea but I really don't know. I might be confusing it with BINYC.
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by WutheringNights76 on Dec 14th, 2017, 07:28am

on Dec 14th, 2017, 06:41am, Fabrizio wrote:
I am not sure about in the Cage, I think it was a collaborative effort based on MIke's idea but I really don't know. I might be confusing it with BINYC.


I believe Tony said In the Cage is a song he wrote on his own, Back in NYC definitely originated from a bass riff by Mike (I recall hearing about a five string bass?). Although, it's hard to regard any compositions on the Lamb as true solo compositions because they have lyrics by Peter.

Of course with the all songs written by Genesis credit on the early and later albums it's hard to know who wrote what, you have claims that make sense like Tony writing Seven Stones or Time Table on his own and Mike writing Harlequin on his own but other than that it's hard to know.
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Merryman72 on Dec 14th, 2017, 07:53am

on Dec 14th, 2017, 07:28am, WutheringNights76 wrote:
I believe Tony said In the Cage is a song he wrote on his own, Back in NYC definitely originated from a bass riff by Mike (I recall hearing about a five string bass?). Although, it's hard to regard any compositions on the Lamb as true solo compositions because they have lyrics by Peter.

Of course with the all songs written by Genesis credit on the early and later albums it's hard to know who wrote what, you have claims that make sense like Tony writing Seven Stones or Time Table on his own and Mike writing Harlequin on his own but other than that it's hard to know.


I think Tony has said (probably in one of the box set features) that some of the added twiddly bits on Back in NYC were "probably my fault" (or something like that), but yes I think the basic song was Mike's.
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Backdrifter on Dec 14th, 2017, 08:08am

on Dec 14th, 2017, 07:53am, Merryman72 wrote:
I think Tony has said (probably in one of the box set features) that some of the added twiddly bits on Back in NYC were "probably my fault" (or something like that), but yes I think the basic song was Mike's.


I personally don't think there are any "twiddly bits" on NYC! The little unaccompanied keyboard bridge of about 4 secs just after the "off we go" section sounds pure Banks to me.

It's a song that I'm sure will leave many here cold but it's in my top 10, kudos to MR if he's mainly responsible for it. I recall a comment in Q magazine when reviewing the 08 remaster, mentioning that song as a standout and saying "it could be from the early 80s, or now".
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Backdrifter on Dec 14th, 2017, 08:24am

on Dec 14th, 2017, 07:28am, WutheringNights76 wrote:
I believe Tony said In the Cage is a song he wrote on his own, Back in NYC definitely originated from a bass riff by Mike (I recall hearing about a five string bass?). Although, it's hard to regard any compositions on the Lamb as true solo compositions because they have lyrics by Peter.

Of course with the all songs written by Genesis credit on the early and later albums it's hard to know who wrote what, you have claims that make sense like Tony writing Seven Stones or Time Table on his own and Mike writing Harlequin on his own but other than that it's hard to know.


With the music and lyrics being so separated on The Lamb, I tend to think of them ads 'solo' when it's known or suggested that one person did the music. Like you I too am sure I've read a TB interview saying he wrote ITC.

From my memory these are all the PG-era ones where I think I've seen specific writing credits referenced:

For Absent Friends - PC/SH
Harlequin - MR
Watcher - lyrics TB/MR
Can Utility - first section SH, instrumental TB/PC/MR jam (and title PG!)
Horizons - SH (obviously....)
Lovers Leap & Guaranteed etc- music TB from university days
Willow Farm - PG
Apocalypse - TB/PC/MR jam
I Know - SH (riff)
Firth - TB
More Fool - MR/PC
Ordeal - SH 1st part, MR 2nd part
Cinema instrumental - TB/PC/MR jam
The Lamb title track - TB/PG
Fly - SH
Cage - TB
NYC (thanks to the above) - MR
Hairless - SH
Carpet C's - PG (in a hurry when realised a song was missing; the quickest he's ever worked in his entire career?!), 'finessed' by TB
Lilywhite - PC
Supernatural - SH
Lamia - TB
Scree - TB

Some of the above are vague in my mind, even vaguer is a very faint distant notion that It was credited largely to SH.

Post PG despite individual credits I've heard Pigeons was largely Banks and I recall him saying he wanted to see if he could write a song with only one note in. Collins says he wrote the MOTD lyric and Hackett said PC also wrote the words to Inside & Out.
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Fabrizio on Dec 14th, 2017, 09:17am

on Dec 14th, 2017, 08:08am, Backdrifter wrote:
I personally don't think there are any "twiddly bits" on NYC! The little unaccompanied keyboard bridge of about 4 secs just after the "off we go" section sounds pure Banks to me.

It's a song that I'm sure will leave many here cold but it's in my top 10, kudos to MR if he's mainly responsible for it. I recall a comment in Q magazine when reviewing the 08 remaster, mentioning that song as a standout and saying "it could be from the early 80s, or now".

One of their absolute best imo.
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Schrottrocker on Dec 14th, 2017, 7:34pm

on Dec 14th, 2017, 08:24am, Backdrifter wrote:
With the music and lyrics being so separated on The Lamb, I tend to think of them ads 'solo' when it's known or suggested that one person did the music. Like you I too am sure I've read a TB interview saying he wrote ITC.

From my memory these are all the PG-era ones where I think I've seen specific writing credits referenced:

For Absent Friends - PC/SH
Harlequin - MR
Watcher - lyrics TB/MR
Can Utility - first section SH, instrumental TB/PC/MR jam (and title PG!)
Horizons - SH (obviously....)
Lovers Leap & Guaranteed etc- music TB from university days
Willow Farm - PG
Apocalypse - TB/PC/MR jam
I Know - SH (riff)
Firth - TB
More Fool - MR/PC
Ordeal - SH 1st part, MR 2nd part
Cinema instrumental - TB/PC/MR jam
The Lamb title track - TB/PG
Fly - SH
Cage - TB
NYC (thanks to the above) - MR
Hairless - SH
Carpet C's - PG (in a hurry when realised a song was missing; the quickest he's ever worked in his entire career?!), 'finessed' by TB
Lilywhite - PC
Supernatural - SH
Lamia - TB
Scree - TB

Some of the above are vague in my mind, even vaguer is a very faint distant notion that It was credited largely to SH.

Post PG despite individual credits I've heard Pigeons was largely Banks and I recall him saying he wanted to see if he could write a song with only one note in. Collins says he wrote the MOTD lyric and Hackett said PC also wrote the words to Inside & Out.


Musicwise, Inside and Out seems to be mainly Mike's; and Riding The Scree sounds like one of those typical Rutherford/Collins/Banks jam sessions with Mike coming up with an endlessly repeating riff and Tony doing freeform while Phil tries to follow both in equal amounts, kind of. It's really the same pattern you can observe in Apocalypse too or in the inital jam sessions that evolved into Epping Forest. Or later on sameways in Down and Out or even later in the instrumental part of Tonight Tonight Tonight.
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Schrottrocker on Dec 14th, 2017, 7:42pm

on Dec 14th, 2017, 04:42am, Backdrifter wrote:
It's interesting isn't it. I'm sure you find it as odd that I much prefer D&O as I do that you prefer SFAND. I think these contrasts arise for a very positive reason, namely that they have such a range of styles within their work that even long-time dedicated fans have disagreements.

I recall you and I touched on this before, I think as part of a Lamb discussion. I said it's my favourite Genesis album and you said you bet I didn't like certain albums or songs and named some things off W&W and ATOTT and you were spot-on. My favourite Genesis stuff is usually the darker, edgier, harder areas, often the more un-Genesis-y ones. I can't get on with the twee stuff at all and Scenes encapsulates the very essence of twee Genesis that makes me cringe. If I were to play it - which I never do - I'd have to then immediately play The Waiting Room to blast away the intense sugariness!


I see your point, anyhow: is Down and Out that much of a dark, sinister song?
Thinking about it, I wonder why it doesn't appeal more to me. I am missing something in that song, I can't pinpoint at it - some quieter part that makes more contrast or some longer intro or instrumental outro or anything like that. It is too reduced to just being a loud rocky song and the 4/4 chorus part is a little too simple to me. Even though the keyboard solo is one of Tony's wickedest solos.
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Merryman72 on Dec 15th, 2017, 05:17am

on Dec 14th, 2017, 7:34pm, Schrottrocker wrote:
Musicwise, Inside and Out seems to be mainly Mike's;


Don't you mean Steve's?
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Schrottrocker on Dec 15th, 2017, 06:48am

on Dec 15th, 2017, 05:17am, Merryman72 wrote:
Don't you mean Steve's?


No, Mike's by any means. Listen to Smallcreep's Day and you will understand. wink
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Merryman72 on Dec 15th, 2017, 08:21am

on Dec 15th, 2017, 06:48am, Schrottrocker wrote:
No, Mike's by any means. Listen to Smallcreep's Day and you will understand. wink


I guess I thought I had read somewhere that Steve took most of the credit, but perhaps I just made an assumption based on all the tales of how annoyed Steve was that it didn't get onto the album. You are right, it does sound very Mike.
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Backdrifter on Dec 18th, 2017, 06:10am

on Dec 14th, 2017, 7:34pm, Schrottrocker wrote:
Riding The Scree sounds like one of those typical Rutherford/Collins/Banks jam sessions with Mike coming up with an endlessly repeating riff and Tony doing freeform while Phil tries to follow both in equal amounts, kind of. It's really the same pattern you can observe in Apocalypse too

That's true. I'm unsure where i think i heard that RTS was TB but I agree with what you say. Same time sig as Apocalypse too?
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Backdrifter on Dec 18th, 2017, 06:18am

on Dec 14th, 2017, 7:42pm, Schrottrocker wrote:
I see your point, anyhow: is Down and Out that much of a dark, sinister song?
Thinking about it, I wonder why it doesn't appeal more to me. I am missing something in that song, I can't pinpoint at it - some quieter part that makes more contrast or some longer intro or instrumental outro or anything like that. It is too reduced to just being a loud rocky song and the 4/4 chorus part is a little too simple to me. Even though the keyboard solo is one of Tony's wickedest solos.

I suppose I meant that in general, the darker side of Genesis is what usually appeals to me more, rather than D&O itself being dark and sinister. That said, maybe it is to some extent, purely by comparison with the rather bright shiny saccharine chocoloate-boxyness of so much of the rest of the album.

D&O indeed doesn't have much contrast in it, apart from the intro which has a slight tension I like very much, annoyingly dispelled somewhat by a superfluous bit of bell-tinkling - a rare bad call by PC. But its straight-ahead loud clattering nature appeals to me and I like that it doesn't go down a more familiar Genesis route of quieter parts and instrumental outros etc. In that sense its relentlessness and the insistent one-note bassline reflect the directness implied in the lyrics - keep up the pressure, don't hedge your bets, right between the eyes, sink or swim, etc.
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by WutheringNights76 on Dec 18th, 2017, 07:54am

on Dec 18th, 2017, 06:10am, Backdrifter wrote:
That's true. I'm unsure where i think i heard that RTS was TB but I agree with what you say. Same time sig as Apocalypse too?


Yep, both are non-compound 9/8. The other example of a Mike riff and Tony solo that I can think of is the 2nd half of Cinema Show, except that's in 7/8. I'm sure the weird arpeggios that play during the vocal part were Tony's.

I guess you can add Tony to the IKWIL credit for the chorus, which was his. I find it amusing that on one hand you have TB calling it an "incredibly strong moment" whereas you have PG saying "boy did I get tired of singing that one!"

As for Carpet Crawl I believe the chord sequence was Mike and Tony together and the vocal melody of lyrics was Peter's.
Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
Post by Backdrifter on Dec 18th, 2017, 09:27am

on Dec 18th, 2017, 07:54am, WutheringNights76 wrote:
I guess you can add Tony to the IKWIL credit for the chorus, which was his. I find it amusing that on one hand you have TB calling it an "incredibly strong moment" whereas you have PG saying "boy did I get tired of singing that one!"



Ah, interesting, that's one I hadn't known before but now you've said it, it sounds obvious. I'm with TB on that, it is a strong moment. Given that PG wouldn't have had to sing it for that long especially given it didn't appear on the Lamb tour, it shows how quickly he tired of it! It's mentioned elsewhere on this board PG got voted down regarding The Cinema Show instrumental, which he apparently didn't want on the album, but I read an interview where he said that it and Apocalypse were examples of stuff he had nothing to do with generating, but was "very proud" of being associated with them, so that bit at least he must have warmed to.