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Me and Sarah Jane
Post by SarahJaneandI on Dec 13th, 2017, 12:45pm

Hi all,

can anyone tell me what the spooky sounding tune is, being played by Tony in the section after Phil sings 'all by yourself'. I've been trying to work it out for years, but I just can't. It sounds like the melody of another Genesis song.

thanks


Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by Schrottrocker on Dec 13th, 2017, 6:37pm

It sounds typical Genesis to me but not like a copy from any particular song. huh The first song that comes to my mind that has a somewhat similar passage would be Say It's Alright Joe with the quiet ending part, Tony plays a similar line there. But there might be more songs with some resembling melody.
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by Backdrifter on Dec 14th, 2017, 05:23am

It's never occurred to me that bit sounds like another Genesis song.

Whether or not it is, I love that song. The penultimate title sequence is one of my favourite pieces of Genesis music.

Banks can be a pretty gloomy sort of bloke in his Genesis songs. M&SJ is one of a number of examples of his songs featuring a general sense of things coming to some sort of end.
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by Fabrizio on Dec 14th, 2017, 12:20pm

on Dec 13th, 2017, 6:37pm, Schrottrocker wrote:
It sounds typical Genesis to me but not like a copy from any particular song. huh The first song that comes to my mind that has a somewhat similar passage would be Say It's Alright Joe with the quiet ending part, Tony plays a similar line there. But there might be more songs with some resembling melody.

Same here, I don't think it has to do with another song but it sounds very typical, very Banks. It reminded me of a passage in Driving the last spike but I am sure many more examples can be found.
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by SarahJaneandI on Dec 15th, 2017, 10:16am

Thanks for the replies. I think you're probably right. Maybe it's a melody to a song not by Genesis that I've heard in the past. Who knows!
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by foxfeeder on Dec 17th, 2017, 09:53am

Best song on the album!

(Damning with feint praise?) undecided
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by Backdrifter on Dec 18th, 2017, 06:00am

on Dec 17th, 2017, 09:53am, foxfeeder wrote:
Best song on the album!

(Damning with feint praise?) undecided


Not at all, in my view!
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by Fabrizio on Dec 18th, 2017, 2:26pm

on Dec 17th, 2017, 09:53am, foxfeeder wrote:
Best song on the album!


Pretty much.
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by TonyEdwards on Dec 18th, 2017, 2:48pm

Great song. Fantastic album.
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by Fabrizio on Dec 18th, 2017, 3:04pm

on Dec 18th, 2017, 2:48pm, TonyEdwards wrote:
Great song. Fantastic album.

I was actually going in the complete opposite direction: MASJ is imo the best song of the album by far but it is also far from Tony's best songs or their best songs. Of course tastes differ but for my money, this goes to show how weak the material on that album is.
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by TonyEdwards on Dec 18th, 2017, 3:41pm

on Dec 18th, 2017, 3:04pm, Fabrizio wrote:
I was actually going in the complete opposite direction: MASJ is imo the best song of the album by far but it is also far from Tony's best songs or their best songs. Of course tastes differ but for my money, this goes to show how weak the material on that album is.


Completely disagree. I'm a fan of all eras of the band (the 4-man era is my favourite), and I listen to Abacab more than any other Genesis album these days. I love the production, and Abacab, M&SJ, Keep It Dark, Dodo/Lurker are outstanding. There isn't a weak track on the album, although the inclusion of the sublime You Might Recall would have made it even better!
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by Fabrizio on Dec 18th, 2017, 3:50pm

on Dec 18th, 2017, 3:41pm, TonyEdwards wrote:
Completely disagree. I'm a fan of all eras of the band (the 4-man era is my favourite), and I listen to Abacab more than any other Genesis album these days. I love the production, and Abacab, M&SJ, Keep It Dark, Dodo/Lurker are outstanding. There isn't a weak track on the album, although the inclusion of the sublime You Might Recall would have made it even better!

Great production, great sound and amazing energy.
I like the ones you mentioned, although I would not call them outstanding personally, meaning they don't stand out in the Genesis songbook imo. That goes for all the eras.
The rest, including the title track, is incredibly weak for me and seems to have let no particular trace. I agree that You might recall would have improved the album.
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by Backdrifter on Dec 19th, 2017, 03:30am

on Dec 18th, 2017, 3:41pm, TonyEdwards wrote:
Completely disagree. I'm a fan of all eras of the band (the 4-man era is my favourite), and I listen to Abacab more than any other Genesis album these days. I love the production, and Abacab, M&SJ, Keep It Dark, Dodo/Lurker are outstanding. There isn't a weak track on the album, although the inclusion of the sublime You Might Recall would have made it even better!


I'm largely with you on Abacab. I think it's a mark of their energy and creativity on these sessions that they felt they could leave out two excellent tracks - Recall and Submarine - and two good ones, Paperlate and Naminanu. I can't think which of those I'd include in a revised tracklisting without turning it into an overlong album, which I'm guessing is something they wanted to avoid. Like you, I listen a lot to this stuff, though I don't often listen to the whole album straight though.

I do think M&SJ is one of TB's best 3 tracks, along with Afterglow and Many Too Many.
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by Fabrizio on Dec 19th, 2017, 09:25am

on Dec 19th, 2017, 03:30am, Backdrifter wrote:
I'm largely with you on Abacab. I think it's a mark of their energy and creativity on these sessions that they felt they could leave out two excellent tracks - Recall and Submarine - and two good ones, Paperlate and Naminanu. I can't think which of those I'd include in a revised tracklisting without turning it into an overlong album, which I'm guessing is something they wanted to avoid. Like you, I listen a lot to this stuff, though I don't often listen to the whole album straight though.

I do think M&SJ is one of TB's best 3 tracks, along with Afterglow and Many Too Many.

I perceive Abacab as a much needed adrenaline shot and because of the energy and novelty it exudes, I am more likely to listen to it than to IT whose material is imo incredibly tight, who can deny all those singles and that amount of success after all? Still, IT was far too poppy for my taste, too sleek, a bit soulless and without the egde Abacab and Shapes still had.
I am always amazed though when fans extoll the virtues of the songs on Abacab per se and quote stuff like Another Record or Like it or Not, NRAA or even Paperlate: songs which were not commercially successful, were generally disliked by the ''old' fans and were quickly dropped by the band. Purely a coincidence maybe but leaving personally likes and dislikes aside, the only song that could have made sense during the 07 Reunion Tour would have been Abacab....Perhaps. They couldn't be bothered. And sure, I would have liked to listen to MASJ, Dodo, even KID but I know they are not essential in their songbook. Still a pleasant listen for my money but I have to cringe when I read there was not a weak song on it, in terms of weakness of material it is imo absolutely comparable to ATTW3 but this, had at least a song Genesis have to play no matter where or when.
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by TonyEdwards on Dec 19th, 2017, 10:36am

on Dec 19th, 2017, 09:25am, Fabrizio wrote:
stuff like Another Record or Like it or Not, NRAA or even Paperlate: songs which were not commercially successful

Commercial success does not necessarily equate to quality. Trespass wasn't a commercial success, but in my opinion is a work of great artistic merit.

Of the songs you mention:

- Paperlate was a Top 10 hit in the UK and a Top 40 hit in the US;
- No Reply At All was a Top 40 hit in the US (wasn't released in the UK); and
- Another Record and Like It Or Not were not released as singles, so I'm not sure how we're supposed to assess their "commercial success".

Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by Fabrizio on Dec 19th, 2017, 11:00am

on Dec 19th, 2017, 10:36am, TonyEdwards wrote:
Commercial success does not necessarily equate to quality. Trespass wasn't a commercial success, but in my opinion is a work of great artistic merit.

Of the songs you mention:

- Paperlate was a Top 10 hit in the UK and a Top 40 hit in the US;
- No Reply At All was a Top 40 hit in the US (wasn't released in the UK); and
- Another Record and Like It Or Not were not released as singles, so I'm not sure how we're supposed to assess their "commercial success".

I completely agree with you: commercial success is not tantamount to artistic quality. I just made that point because it often comes up in the disputes between old and new eras fans, where you have the old fan claiming some sort of artistic value, whereas the new fans cling to the commercial success. In al fairness, the latter is measurable, the former not so much but as I said, I am with you and I adore Trespass.
As for the songs in question: a top 40 in the US is hardly a smash-hit, leaving other artists aside , feel free to compare it with how and where, meaning in how many countries, their following singles charted. I spare you the time, there is no comparison.
Like it or not and Another record were not released as single, you are right, I wonder why though, they are both commercially oriented songs and LION has been called by some fans a great pop song but evidently not so great to be even considered for a single release and with that we assessed I guess its commercial success.
AR is quite simply a filler and we shouldn't even be talking about it.
So in recap: sales were OK, not fantastic, old fans base not happy and as for the band, it's not like they kept playing any of those songs live for much longer.

Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by TonyEdwards on Dec 19th, 2017, 11:35am

on Dec 19th, 2017, 11:00am, Fabrizio wrote:
As for the songs in question: a top 40 in the US is hardly a smash-hit, leaving other artists aside , feel free to compare it with how and where, meaning in how many countries, their following singles charted. I spare you the time, there is no comparison.
Like it or not and Another record were not released as single, you are right, I wonder why though, they are both commercially oriented songs and LION has been called by some fans a great pop song but evidently not so great to be even considered for a single release and with that we assessed I guess its commercial success.
AR is quite simply a filler and we shouldn't even be talking about it.
So in recap: sales were OK, not fantastic, old fans base not happy and as for the band, it's not like they kept playing any of those songs live for much longer.


The Abacab sessions spawned four US Top 40 hits (compared with just two (Follow You Follow Me and Misunderstanding) before that): No Reply At All, Abacab, Man On The Corner, and Paperlate. In the UK, the sessions gave the band two Top 10 hits (Abacab and Paperlate), and one Top 40 hit (Keep It Dark), as well as a near miss (Man On The Corner at number 41).

Why were Like It Or Not and Another Record not released as singles? In 1981, three singles from an album was about the norm (and in any case Another Record was the B-side to Abacab).

So in recap: Abacab was the band's biggest selling album to date, and delivered several hit singles. What came later doesn't change that. And there are many songs from the band's back catalogue that they rarely played live after the tour to promote the particular album, which in my opinion are fantastic (Blood On The Rooftops must be dreadful by your reasoning).
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by Backdrifter on Dec 19th, 2017, 12:20pm

I'd have liked something from Abacab on the 07 tour, there is the often-told story of the title track being rehearsed until PC said he didn't want to do it due to the lyrics. Pity, I like the words and the disconnected oddness of them - one of my favourite Genesis lyrics is "When you wake and find you're covered in cellophane/There's a hole in there somewhere". Despite loving M&SJ, if the 3SL version is anything to go by, it didn't work well live.

I agree that the early disappearance of tracks on tours is a red herring in this context. Ones that were either fan favourites or hit singles that got pulled 1 to 2 tours after they first appeared, and maybe at most reappeared as brief snippets:

DWTMK (never played properly again, maybe once in 78?)
Entangled
Eleventh Earl
Burning Rope
BTL, Duchess, Duke's Travels/End
That's All
The Brazilian
Ripples had to wait 2 tours before being aired then only lasted 2 tours until resurrected (incomplete) in 07.
The Cinema Show was only played in full on 3 tours.
Salmacis only got aired on 2 or 3 tours.

I admired this in a way, that they could be very unsentimental about their material but it could be frustrating too as I'd have liked BTL to have lasted longer. They considered it as the opener on the WCD tour before opting for LoC.
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by Fabrizio on Dec 19th, 2017, 12:21pm

on Dec 19th, 2017, 11:35am, TonyEdwards wrote:
The Abacab sessions spawned four US Top 40 hits (compared with just two (Follow You Follow Me and Misunderstanding) before that): No Reply At All, Abacab, Man On The Corner, and Paperlate. In the UK, the sessions gave the band two Top 10 hits (Abacab and Paperlate), and one Top 40 hit (Keep It Dark), as well as a near miss (Man On The Corner at number 41).

Why were Like It Or Not and Another Record not released as singles? In 1981, three singles from an album was about the norm (and in any case Another Record was the B-side to Abacab).

So in recap: Abacab was the band's biggest selling album to date, and delivered several hit singles. What came later doesn't change that. And there are many songs from the band's back catalogue that they rarely played live after the tour to promote the particular album, which in my opinion are fantastic (Blood On The Rooftops must be dreadful by your reasoning).

I am not sure why what came later, meaning putting things in context, shouldn't count. When reviewing Genesis career, their whole career, their hits are mentioned and measured in terms of sales but hey, if that's how you want to tackle it, ok. I love blood on the rooftops but those kind of songs, slow, alwayas have a hard time translating live, that shouldn't be an issue and surely it cannot be compared with uptempo songs which have charted and have been moderately, imo, or very iyo successful singles. It's easy to undertsand why they don't play Blood on the rooftops live, personally I can understand why they don't play Abacab, or Paperlate either: they have either more successful or better songs and in some cases both.
IT sounds dreadful to me but they have to play it, I understand the logic behind that.
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by Merryman72 on Dec 19th, 2017, 4:13pm

on Dec 19th, 2017, 12:20pm, Backdrifter wrote:
I agree that the early disappearance of tracks on tours is a red herring in this context. Ones that were either fan favourites or hit singles that got pulled 1 to 2 tours after they first appeared, and maybe at most reappeared as brief snippets:

DWTMK (never played properly again, maybe once in 78?)
Entangled
Eleventh Earl
Burning Rope
BTL, Duchess, Duke's Travels/End
That's All
The Brazilian
Ripples had to wait 2 tours before being aired then only lasted 2 tours until resurrected (incomplete) in 07.
The Cinema Show was only played in full on 3 tours.
Salmacis only got aired on 2 or 3 tours.

I admired this in a way, that they could be very unsentimental about their material but it could be frustrating too as I'd have liked BTL to have lasted longer. They considered it as the opener on the WCD tour before opting for LoC.


To be horribly pedantic, "Behind the Lines" appeared on 3 successive tours: Duke, Abacab, and the Three Sides Live "Encore" tour - the one which saw the resurrection of "Supper's Ready". I suppose you could argue that it doesn't count for much as there was no new material released since the previous tour, but it was a substantially different setlist. tongue
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by Fabrizio on Dec 19th, 2017, 5:20pm

on Dec 19th, 2017, 12:20pm, Backdrifter wrote:
I agree that the early disappearance of tracks on tours is a red herring in this context.

Yes and no, I guess. Some songs are simply not good live, that is not detrimental to the songs in itself. I had dreadful gigs experiences with some drunk shouting in my ears when I just wanted to listen to some songs. Usually the slower, more atmospheric songs suffer but sometimes, even rockier numbers take the blow. There's nothing preventing Deep in the Motherlode, to mention one, from being a good live song but I heard a couple of renditions and for some reason it falls flat. Now, Abacab for instance is a quintessential live song, if they dropped it, probably it wasn't based on the fact that it was unsuitable but, and bear in mind this is strictly my opinion, there's not much to it and gets tired very quickly. It sounds perhaps like a good idea at the moment but in time...
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by WutheringNights76 on Dec 19th, 2017, 11:09pm

on Dec 19th, 2017, 12:20pm, Backdrifter wrote:
I'd have liked something from Abacab on the 07 tour, there is the often-told story of the title track being rehearsed until PC said he didn't want to do it due to the lyrics. Pity, I like the words and the disconnected oddness of them - one of my favourite Genesis lyrics is "When you wake and find you're covered in cellophane/There's a hole in there somewhere". Despite loving M&SJ, if the 3SL version is anything to go by, it didn't work well live.

I agree that the early disappearance of tracks on tours is a red herring in this context. Ones that were either fan favourites or hit singles that got pulled 1 to 2 tours after they first appeared, and maybe at most reappeared as brief snippets:

DWTMK (never played properly again, maybe once in 78?)
Entangled
Eleventh Earl
Burning Rope
BTL, Duchess, Duke's Travels/End
That's All
The Brazilian
Ripples had to wait 2 tours before being aired then only lasted 2 tours until resurrected (incomplete) in 07.
The Cinema Show was only played in full on 3 tours.
Salmacis only got aired on 2 or 3 tours.

I admired this in a way, that they could be very unsentimental about their material but it could be frustrating too as I'd have liked BTL to have lasted longer. They considered it as the opener on the WCD tour before opting for LoC.


Interestingly, according to Tony Banks, Fountain of Salmacis was "horribly received" live.
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by Backdrifter on Dec 20th, 2017, 05:28am

on Dec 19th, 2017, 4:13pm, Merryman72 wrote:
To be horribly pedantic, "Behind the Lines" appeared on 3 successive tours: Duke, Abacab, and the Three Sides Live "Encore" tour - the one which saw the resurrection of "Supper's Ready". I suppose you could argue that it doesn't count for much as there was no new material released since the previous tour, but it was a substantially different setlist. tongue

That's not being pedantic, horribly or otherwise. It's correct, and I included the Encore tour in my "1 to 2 tours after first appearance" by not counting the Duke tour as this was the first appearance. That's being pedantic!
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by Backdrifter on Dec 20th, 2017, 05:30am

on Dec 19th, 2017, 11:09pm, WutheringNights76 wrote:
Interestingly, according to Tony Banks, Fountain of Salmacis was "horribly received" live.

Hmmm, that is indeed interesting. I assume he means 71-72 and that it was generally well-received in 78? On the mirrors tour I gather it was resurrected as a chance for the newly arrived DS to show what he could do.
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by WutheringNights76 on Dec 20th, 2017, 05:56am

on Dec 20th, 2017, 05:30am, Backdrifter wrote:
Hmmm, that is indeed interesting. I assume he means 71-72 and that it was generally well-received in 78? On the mirrors tour I gather it was resurrected as a chance for the newly arrived DS to show what he could do.


I guess so, for me its one of my top 3 Genesis tracks and I love the 1978 version despite no Peter or Steve (!), mostly because I love Tony's keyboard rig on this tour, it had a good mix of synths (ARP 2600 and Polymoog) the glorious Yamaha CP-70 as well as the old favourites like the Hammond organ and the Mellotron.

Unfortunately I can't remember where I got that quote from but I also remember TB saying that he was surprised by the fact that The Musical Box was so well received when it wasn't "half the song", so yes, that points towards it being in 1971 and 1972.

As for certain songs falling by the wayside, I suppose that's what happens when you organise your set from the newest album back!
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by Backdrifter on Dec 20th, 2017, 06:37am

The 78 version of FoS on 3SL is indeed very good but I always go back to the original, mainly for SH's typically economical end solo which I believe to be the start of something, a new sound. There's a plaintive element to it which eludes DS's accomplished but, to my ears, characterless version (something which I felt about much of his work and also applies to his overly fussy FoF solo).

I respect a band who base their live shows on their newest work. Okay it means it probably marginalises older stuff some of which I'd love to hear but I completely get the approach. Genesis were pretty mercenary about it which I know upset/frustrated some fans. The one thing that bothered me was the rigidity of their sets, especially on the later tours when very few or indeed no changes were ever made to the setlist. They tended to become a very unsurprising live band in that sense, unlike some who suddenly throw in a completely unexpected old one now and then.
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by HomeByTheSea on Dec 20th, 2017, 08:05am

on Dec 19th, 2017, 12:20pm, Backdrifter wrote:
I agree that the early disappearance of tracks on tours is a red herring in this context. Ones that were either fan favourites or hit singles that got pulled 1 to 2 tours after they first appeared, and maybe at most reappeared as brief snippets:

DWTMK (never played properly again, maybe once in 78?)


DWTMK was played on the 1980 Duke Tour, although it was only the intro.
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by Fabrizio on Dec 20th, 2017, 08:45am

on Dec 20th, 2017, 06:37am, Backdrifter wrote:
There's a plaintive element to it which eludes DS's accomplished but, to my ears, characterless version (something which I felt about much of his work and also applies to his overly fussy FoF solo).


Agree completely.
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by foxfeeder on Dec 20th, 2017, 10:06am

on Dec 19th, 2017, 12:21pm, Fabrizio wrote:
I am not sure why what came later, meaning putting things in context, shouldn't count. When reviewing Genesis career, their whole career, their hits are mentioned and measured in terms of sales but hey, if that's how you want to tackle it, ok. I love blood on the rooftops but those kind of songs, slow, alwayas have a hard time translating live, that shouldn't be an issue and surely it cannot be compared with uptempo songs which have charted and have been moderately, imo, or very iyo successful singles. It's easy to undertsand why they don't play Blood on the rooftops live, personally I can understand why they don't play Abacab, or Paperlate either: they have either more successful or better songs and in some cases both.
IT sounds dreadful to me but they have to play it, I understand the logic behind that.


Blood on the Rooftops was never going to be played after Steve left. They'd have to acknowledge his existence if they played it! wink
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by foxfeeder on Dec 20th, 2017, 10:08am

on Dec 20th, 2017, 08:45am, Fabrizio wrote:
Agree completely.


Ah the old SH v DS debate, as old as time! grin

As has been said before, Daryl is a fine, very capable guitarist, but SH he is not. Daryl is from the Patrick Moraz camp: "Why play 2 notes when 10000 will fit!"
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by Merryman72 on Dec 20th, 2017, 10:42am

on Dec 20th, 2017, 05:28am, Backdrifter wrote:
That's not being pedantic, horribly or otherwise. It's correct, and I included the Encore tour in my "1 to 2 tours after first appearance" by not counting the Duke tour as this was the first appearance. That's being pedantic!


Ahh ok, I guess I just misunderstood the criteria for the list then!
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by Fabrizio on Dec 20th, 2017, 10:45am

on Dec 20th, 2017, 10:06am, foxfeeder wrote:
Blood on the Rooftops was never going to be played after Steve left. They'd have to acknowledge his existence if they played it! wink

I don't know whether that's the case, after all they played Entangled for a while, that's Steve's and Tony's, while BOTR is Steve's and Phil's. Personally, it's a song I enjoy very much quietly, without people screaming over the intro.
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by Fabrizio on Dec 20th, 2017, 10:53am

on Dec 20th, 2017, 10:08am, foxfeeder wrote:
As has been said before, Daryl is a fine, very capable guitarist, but SH he is not. Daryl is from the Patrick Moraz camp: "Why play 2 notes when 10000 will fit!"


Well, I think Daryl is technically superior to Steve but that doesn't mean much and I don't remember reading Steve is not an excellent player. I generally dislike Daryl's solos on FoF, particularly on the last tour, where he really cut loose. I think he misses the point completely and you are right, he is far too busy. I think we can chalk it up to the fact that it is one of the few moments when he gets to shine a bit.
Also, technique aside, he is very, very american in his playing and that song requires a different feel and sound imo.

Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by Witchwood on Dec 20th, 2017, 3:36pm

on Dec 20th, 2017, 10:53am, Fabrizio wrote:
Well, I think Daryl is technically superior to Steve but that doesn't mean much and I don't remember reading Steve is not an excellent player. I generally dislike Daryl's solos on FoF, particularly on the last tour, where he really cut loose. I think he misses the point completely and you are right, he is far too busy. I think we can chalk it up to the fact that it is one of the few moments when he gets to shine a bit.
Also, technique aside, he is very, very american in his playing and that song requires a different feel and sound imo.


Daryl fit in very well playing high-tempo jazz fusion with Jean-Luc Ponty.
Listening to those albums, I sometimes wonder if Daryl was bored playing a much more restrained type of music with Genesis.
Given his skills, I can understand why he would go on a bit of a tear, like at the end of Salmacis, when he was given the chance.

Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by HENRY on Dec 21st, 2017, 01:52am

on Dec 20th, 2017, 10:08am, foxfeeder wrote:
As has been said before, Daryl is a fine, very capable guitarist, but SH he is not. Daryl is from the Patrick Moraz camp: "Why play 2 notes when 10000 will fit!"

Sorry, but I strongly disagree with this characterization.

Daryl, by no means, overplays his role within the band and its music. In fact, for the most part he is deliberately reigned in on playing beyond the established guitar parts. Yes, there are specific moments were he is given the freedom to stretch out a bit. So? I've seen and heard Steve do just as much with Genesis material on his solo tours. Why does Steve get a pass while Daryl gets scrutinized?


Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by Backdrifter on Dec 21st, 2017, 06:03am

on Dec 21st, 2017, 01:52am, HENRY wrote:
Sorry, but I strongly disagree with this characterization.

Daryl, by no means, overplays his role within the band and its music. In fact, for the most part he is deliberately reigned in on playing beyond the established guitar parts. Yes, there are specific moments were he is given the freedom to stretch out a bit. So? I've seen and heard Steve do just as much with Genesis material on his solo tours. Why does Steve get a pass while Daryl gets scrutinized?



A fair point. While as I said I prefer SH's more economical originals to DS's takes, SH can indeed let rip a lot more when doing some of those tracks now. So yes he's not immune to it but I still always tend to prefer his originals. There's nothing "wrong" in principle with flexing their muscles a bit more on live takes, it's just a matter of whether the listener prefers this or not, in my case it's usually not.

Also, while generally finding DS's playing a bit characterless, I don't want to give the impression I'm doing him down too much - he could add some nice touches of colour and flair to certain tracks.
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by foxfeeder on Dec 21st, 2017, 07:04am

on Dec 21st, 2017, 01:52am, HENRY wrote:
Sorry, but I strongly disagree with this characterization.

Daryl, by no means, overplays his role within the band and its music. In fact, for the most part he is deliberately reigned in on playing beyond the established guitar parts. Yes, there are specific moments were he is given the freedom to stretch out a bit. So? I've seen and heard Steve do just as much with Genesis material on his solo tours. Why does Steve get a pass while Daryl gets scrutinized?



That's fine. You're entitled. I disagree with your disagreement though!

Of all Steve's recent versions of the old days, the only one that stands out as "wild and different" is the Albert Hall version of Supper's Ready, and, as Steve has said, the original studio version excluded parts in the final mix that he had recorded, so I'm guessing he was finally opening Panndora's Box on it.

As for Daryl, there was a version of the FOF solo he did alone which was posted on here (by me, I think) a couple of years ago, where the track was barely recognisable. Maybe some prefer it. Myself, I'm thankful Steve was the original creator, your mileage etc..............
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by foxfeeder on Dec 21st, 2017, 07:05am

on Dec 20th, 2017, 10:53am, Fabrizio wrote:
Well, I think Daryl is technically superior to Steve but that doesn't mean much and I don't remember reading Steve is not an excellent player. I generally dislike Daryl's solos on FoF, particularly on the last tour, where he really cut loose. I think he misses the point completely and you are right, he is far too busy. I think we can chalk it up to the fact that it is one of the few moments when he gets to shine a bit.
Also, technique aside, he is very, very american in his playing and that song requires a different feel and sound imo.


Neither do I.
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by foxfeeder on Dec 21st, 2017, 07:06am

on Dec 20th, 2017, 3:36pm, Witchwood wrote:
Daryl fit in very well playing high-tempo jazz fusion with Jean-Luc Ponty.
Listening to those albums, I sometimes wonder if Daryl was bored playing a much more restrained type of music with Genesis.
Given his skills, I can understand why he would go on a bit of a tear, like at the end of Salmacis, when he was given the chance.


To be fair, I do like his take on FOS at the 1978 Reading Festival.
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by Schrottrocker on Dec 21st, 2017, 07:56am

Daryl did a good job on Ripples and Carpet Crawlers, and I'm fine with his solos in In The Cage and It's Gonna Get Better. But he ruins Firth of Fifth and Moonlit Knight. He just doesn't do justice to what Steve created.
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by Fabrizio on Dec 21st, 2017, 09:03am

on Dec 20th, 2017, 3:36pm, Witchwood wrote:
I sometimes wonder if Daryl was bored playing a much more restrained type of music with Genesis.


He must have been I guess. Post-Hackett guitar parts are not exactly challenging or prominent for instance, so he is left with Steves's parts or solos specifically and he is a very different kind of guitarist. FoF solo in particular is highly revered, it is an integral part of the song, generally considered as important as the song itself. Throughout the years, it has achieved iconic status and I guess some fans, including myself, are quite territorial about it. In addition to that, Genesis live were never about wild improvisation, they pretty much tended to stick to the script and any slight variation felt somewhat organical, as it came directly from the musicians responsible for creating the song. Having a musician with a completely different background and feel ''tampering'' with that, might be disconcerting at times.....To some.

Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by WutheringNights76 on Dec 22nd, 2017, 02:27am

The kind of solos Steve did at the time sound very merticulous and worked out and there's a real narrative to the Firth of Fifth solo so loses something when you have a guy coming in and kind of approximating but mostly just shredding (quite tediously imo). Most people are more sympathetic to guitarists embellishing their solos but for me it's no different than if Tony left and you had a guy "putting his own spin" on Apocalypse in 9/8, Cinema Show, Cage, Slippermen etc. If the solo was done like Rick Wakeman or something originally it would be no problem for someone to 'interpret' them but because I believe they are so planned out I prefer to hear them played as they were written.
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by Backdrifter on Feb 16th, 2018, 04:31am

on Dec 21st, 2017, 07:06am, foxfeeder wrote:
To be fair, I do like his take on FOS at the 1978 Reading Festival.

Sorry to nitpick - it was Knebworth (their only UK gig that year).

I remember reading they resurrected FoS on that tour, DS's first, to help reassure fans the guitar was in good hands.
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by foxfeeder on Feb 16th, 2018, 07:21am

on Feb 16th, 2018, 04:31am, Backdrifter wrote:
Sorry to nitpick - it was Knebworth (their only UK gig that year).

I remember reading they resurrected FoS on that tour, DS's first, to help reassure fans the guitar was in good hands.


Correct! Slip of the mind! wink
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by onetwothree on Feb 16th, 2018, 07:27am

on Feb 16th, 2018, 04:31am, Backdrifter wrote:
I remember reading they resurrected FoS on that tour

Firth of Sixth?
Re: Me and Sarah Jane
Post by Schrottrocker on Feb 16th, 2018, 09:22am

Fountain of Falmafif?