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Fabrizio
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xx Re: The Carpet Crawlers: A good ending to TIOA sho
« Reply #30 on: Aug 15th, 2017, 1:45pm »

on Jun 10th, 2015, 6:45pm, Dr. John wrote:
I thought it was OK, but Fading Lights would have been the right final song for me.

I agree, new song with a nod to the past, evocative and quite fitting lyrics, only the three of them on stage. Perfection. I wouldn't have a probelm with CC though.
« Last Edit: Aug 15th, 2017, 1:46pm by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

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xx Re: The Carpet Crawlers: A good ending to TIOA sho
« Reply #31 on: Aug 15th, 2017, 1:58pm »

on Jun 27th, 2015, 4:04pm, Schrottrocker wrote:
Is it normal in your countries that people leave in the middle of concerts to go to the rest room? huh

Good question! I went to several concerts, of several artists, in several countries and not only I don't remember the need for a pitch stop but also I don't remember people around leaving to hit the boys' rest room. Pehaps the odd person with weak bladder but certainly no mass movements or an exodus. You would stand in line and pay money for a two hours gig, struggle to find a good spot, trust me, you stay put. Apparently though, it has become common practice these days.
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question Re: The Carpet Crawlers: A good ending to TIOA sho
« Reply #32 on: Aug 15th, 2017, 5:11pm »

Yes, it's a beautiful song that represents Genesis at their best. It was a good ending, especially after how disappointingly trio-era heavy the rest of the setlist was.
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xx Re: The Carpet Crawlers: A good ending to TIOA sho
« Reply #33 on: Aug 16th, 2017, 12:35am »

on Aug 15th, 2017, 5:11pm, StarOfSirius wrote:
Yes, it's a beautiful song that represents Genesis at their best. It was a good ending, especially after how disappointingly trio-era heavy the rest of the setlist was.


I've calculated the running times of each of the 5 and 4 man songs which were played in the 2007 setlist:

In the Cage - 8 min
Cinema Show - 3 min, 10 seconds
Afterglow - 4 min, 27 seconds
Firth of Fifth - 4 min, 40 seconds
I Know what I like - 6 min, 45 seconds
Ripples - 8 min
Los Endos - 6 min, 25 seconds
Carpet Crawlers - 6 min

Total running time, 47 minutes and 27 seconds.
Total gig running time, 2 hours, 19 minutes, which means the music from the 4 and 5 man eras of Genesis occupied just over 1/3rd of the gig.
There was always going to be the hits. But there was some great trio era performances of Domino, Home by the sea, Mama and the Duke intro.
I struggle with people complaining about the 2007 setlist. It was imo beautifully balanced. Ok, I didn't get to hear Duchess or anything else from Wind and Wuthering, but it's clear to me that they thought very carefully about the gig sequencing and what songs they performed.
« Last Edit: Aug 16th, 2017, 12:36am by KiwiDave » User IP Logged

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question Re: The Carpet Crawlers: A good ending to TIOA sho
« Reply #34 on: Aug 16th, 2017, 05:24am »

on Aug 16th, 2017, 12:35am, KiwiDave wrote:
I've calculated the running times of each of the 5 and 4 man songs which were played in the 2007 setlist:

In the Cage - 8 min
Cinema Show - 3 min, 10 seconds
Afterglow - 4 min, 27 seconds
Firth of Fifth - 4 min, 40 seconds
I Know what I like - 6 min, 45 seconds
Ripples - 8 min
Los Endos - 6 min, 25 seconds
Carpet Crawlers - 6 min

Total running time, 47 minutes and 27 seconds.
Total gig running time, 2 hours, 19 minutes, which means the music from the 4 and 5 man eras of Genesis occupied just over 1/3rd of the gig.
There was always going to be the hits. But there was some great trio era performances of Domino, Home by the sea, Mama and the Duke intro.
I struggle with people complaining about the 2007 setlist. It was imo beautifully balanced. Ok, I didn't get to hear Duchess or anything else from Wind and Wuthering, but it's clear to me that they thought very carefully about the gig sequencing and what songs they performed.

I'm glad that they chose to include these songs and I do enjoy revisiting those performances, but it's still true that a decisive minority of the set is comprised of material from the era I truly love, and much of it in the form of medleys rather than complete performances. I'm afraid that's not what I'd call "beautifully balanced". It just seems like a missed opportunity to me. There are so many stone-cold classics from the 70s that have rarely (and in some cases never) been played live, and it would have been so much better to hear some of those instead of the 55 minutes of hits which have already received more than enough radio play and featured prominently on the preceding three tours, also potentially making it feasible to bring Hackett along for the ride. Wouldn't you rather have heard Dancing with the Moonlit Knight and Blood on the Rooftops by a reformed four-man lineup than Invisible Touch and I Can't Dance for the millionth time? If your answer is anything other than an emphatic "yes" then I think we may be listening to Genesis for very different reasons, which is absolutely fine of course, but don't expect me to share your unconditional satisfaction with any venture that less than fully represents the music that is the entire basis of my love for this band.
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xx Re: The Carpet Crawlers: A good ending to TIOA sho
« Reply #35 on: Aug 16th, 2017, 08:33am »

on Jun 27th, 2015, 11:08am, unclealbert wrote:
I understand that those who like the song may have enjoyed hearing it. But not (for me) as the final song and something a bit more upbeat would have been better (for me).


Generally speaking I would agree that a concert should end on a high, euphoric note, however, I think there is a big difference between a regular concert, with perhaps other records and tours to follow and a last tour where you are bidding farewell to the fans and closing a career. It's done, that's it! There's nothing beyond that and pehaps ending on a more wistful, poignant tone doesn't seem so inappropiate. I cannot help but thinking about that last gig where Phil told Tony and Mike how much he appreciated and loved them. Kind of touching for the band and for the fans and as I said, after a moment like that, I think something like Fading Lights would be utter perfection but TCC, a song the overwhelming majority of fans appreciate, wouldn't be bad either imo.
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xx Re: The Carpet Crawlers: A good ending to TIOA sho
« Reply #36 on: Aug 17th, 2017, 02:40am »

on Aug 16th, 2017, 05:24am, StarOfSirius wrote:
I'm glad that they chose to include these songs and I do enjoy revisiting those performances, but it's still true that a decisive minority of the set is comprised of material from the era I truly love, and much of it in the form of medleys rather than complete performances. I'm afraid that's not what I'd call "beautifully balanced". It just seems like a missed opportunity to me. There are so many stone-cold classics from the 70s that have rarely (and in some cases never) been played live, and it would have been so much better to hear some of those instead of the 55 minutes of hits which have already received more than enough radio play and featured prominently on the preceding three tours, also potentially making it feasible to bring Hackett along for the ride. Wouldn't you rather have heard Dancing with the Moonlit Knight and Blood on the Rooftops by a reformed four-man lineup than Invisible Touch and I Can't Dance for the millionth time? If your answer is anything other than an emphatic "yes" then I think we may be listening to Genesis for very different reasons, which is absolutely fine of course, but don't expect me to share your unconditional satisfaction with any venture that less than fully represents the music that is the entire basis of my love for this band.


I've thought about your comments and you make some very good points. However to me, there's a wish list (BOTR for example) and then there's reality. Of course you and I would have gone bonkers had they played BOTR or DWTMK, however I suspect those songs would be lost on many at those stadium gigs, and lost in the scale and size of those stadiums.
They had to play the songs that many remembered them for - that means the hits - whether we like it or not, there were many casual fans at the TIOA shows - the lowest common denominator, who the band had to play an amount of the setlist for. Also, don't forget that this was the setlist that they wanted to play. If they wanted to play other songs, you would have heard them.
In an ideal world, there would have been an encore tour, in 2008 of theatres or arenas, with a slightly different setlist, that could have included some of the lesser heard or played - or in the case of BOTR, never played tunes and I think that would have been the perfect way to bring the curtain down. However that was never the plan, and we got what they gave us. In as far as the experience was for me, yes it wasn't quite the perfect setlist, but it was pretty darn good. And worth traveling 36,000 kilometres there and back for. And if that was our final experience of Genesis live, with the guys in their mid 50's still sounding and performing magnificently, then that's a wonderful final gesture and representation of what they were.
As for Blood on the Rooftops, having seen Steve Hackett performing in the north of England, 4 shows in a week in May, with BOTR each time played superbly by Steve and his band, that'll do me.
« Last Edit: Aug 17th, 2017, 02:43am by KiwiDave » User IP Logged

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question Re: The Carpet Crawlers: A good ending to TIOA sho
« Reply #37 on: Aug 17th, 2017, 11:46am »

Would any band not devote the majority of the setlist to songs known and loved by the majority of the expected attendees? Most people attending would not have recognized, never mind loved BotR and other similar gems. And we have to keep in mind, that the reason the tour was financially possible was because it would attract a lot of the more casual fans. I doubt a tour would have happened at all if it was just in theatres for the die-hard Genesis fans.

I'll draw a parallel with another favourite band of mine, The Who. Most of their setlist are songs that everyone has heard a million times on classic rock radio. Fans on their website gripe about a lack of obscure classics. When they have tried to revive such obscurities (e.g., A Quick One While he's Away) in recent years, they ultimately had to drop them because the majority of the audiences didn't care for them.

I think back to the Invisible Touch tour and going bonkers when they slipped into the full ITQE and even more bonkers when I recognized the groove of Apocalypse in 9/8. And I remember how every single person around me was mystified at both my reaction and what was being played on the stage. Many headed off for the bathroom.
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xx Re: The Carpet Crawlers: A good ending to TIOA sho
« Reply #38 on: Aug 17th, 2017, 7:06pm »

on Aug 17th, 2017, 02:40am, KiwiDave wrote:
I've thought about your comments and you make some very good points. However to me, there's a wish list (BOTR for example) and then there's reality. Of course you and I would have gone bonkers had they played BOTR or DWTMK, however I suspect those songs would be lost on many at those stadium gigs, and lost in the scale and size of those stadiums.
They had to play the songs that many remembered them for - that means the hits - whether we like it or not, there were many casual fans at the TIOA shows - the lowest common denominator, who the band had to play an amount of the setlist for. Also, don't forget that this was the setlist that they wanted to play. If they wanted to play other songs, you would have heard them.
In an ideal world, there would have been an encore tour, in 2008 of theatres or arenas, with a slightly different setlist, that could have included some of the lesser heard or played - or in the case of BOTR, never played tunes and I think that would have been the perfect way to bring the curtain down. However that was never the plan, and we got what they gave us. In as far as the experience was for me, yes it wasn't quite the perfect setlist, but it was pretty darn good. And worth traveling 36,000 kilometres there and back for. And if that was our final experience of Genesis live, with the guys in their mid 50's still sounding and performing magnificently, then that's a wonderful final gesture and representation of what they were.
As for Blood on the Rooftops, having seen Steve Hackett performing in the north of England, 4 shows in a week in May, with BOTR each time played superbly by Steve and his band, that'll do me.


It was pretty ironic that I just got to see Steve & he DIDN'T play BOTR.
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thumbdown Re: The Carpet Crawlers: A good ending to TIOA sho
« Reply #39 on: Aug 18th, 2017, 09:24am »

on Aug 17th, 2017, 11:46am, Dr. John wrote:
Would any band not devote the majority of the setlist to songs known and loved by the majority of the expected attendees? Most people attending would not have recognized, never mind loved BotR and other similar gems. And we have to keep in mind, that the reason the tour was financially possible was because it would attract a lot of the more casual fans. I doubt a tour would have happened at all if it was just in theatres for the die-hard Genesis fans.

I'll draw a parallel with another favourite band of mine, The Who. Most of their setlist are songs that everyone has heard a million times on classic rock radio. Fans on their website gripe about a lack of obscure classics. When they have tried to revive such obscurities (e.g., A Quick One While he's Away) in recent years, they ultimately had to drop them because the majority of the audiences didn't care for them.

I think back to the Invisible Touch tour and going bonkers when they slipped into the full ITQE and even more bonkers when I recognized the groove of Apocalypse in 9/8. And I remember how every single person around me was mystified at both my reaction and what was being played on the stage. Many headed off for the bathroom.


Shit like this is why I detest it when mainstream audiences start to take notice of musical acts I enjoy. It's not that I necessarily want my favourite artists to remain obscure, but these so-called "casual fans" invariably just ruin it for those of us who actually understand and appreciate the music on a deeper level.

If you don't know who all of the members of a band are and haven't heard most of their discography, you're not a fan. I'm just getting into The Moody Blues at the moment. I think To Our Children's Children's Children and Days of Future Passed are great albums, but those are all I've heard and at the moment I couldn't name you any band members beyond Justin Hayward. I wouldn't tell some guy in the street that I'm a "huge fan" of theirs the way some people who've only heard the last three trio albums and assume Phil wrote everything do with Genesis, and I certainly wouldn't dare go along to a Moody Blues concert and respond rudely to anything I didn't recognise.
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xx Re: The Carpet Crawlers: A good ending to TIOA sho
« Reply #40 on: Aug 19th, 2017, 06:14am »

on Aug 18th, 2017, 09:24am, StarOfSirius wrote:
Shit like this is why I detest it when mainstream audiences start to take notice of musical acts I enjoy. It's not that I necessarily want my favourite artists to remain obscure, but these so-called "casual fans" invariably just ruin it for those of us who actually understand and appreciate the music on a deeper level.


You're not a black metal fan, are you? wink
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question Re: The Carpet Crawlers: A good ending to TIOA sho
« Reply #41 on: Aug 19th, 2017, 06:43am »

on Aug 19th, 2017, 06:14am, Schrottrocker wrote:
You're not a black metal fan, are you? wink

No. I can understand the genre's appeal, but it doesn't resonate with me at all.
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question Re: The Carpet Crawlers: A good ending to TIOA sho
« Reply #42 on: Aug 19th, 2017, 12:20pm »

on Aug 18th, 2017, 09:24am, StarOfSirius wrote:
Shit like this is why I detest it when mainstream audiences start to take notice of musical acts I enjoy. It's not that I necessarily want my favourite artists to remain obscure, but these so-called "casual fans" invariably just ruin it for those of us who actually understand and appreciate the music on a deeper level.

If you don't know who all of the members of a band are and haven't heard most of their discography, you're not a fan. I'm just getting into The Moody Blues at the moment. I think To Our Children's Children's Children and Days of Future Passed are great albums, but those are all I've heard and at the moment I couldn't name you any band members beyond Justin Hayward. I wouldn't tell some guy in the street that I'm a "huge fan" of theirs the way some people who've only heard the last three trio albums and assume Phil wrote everything do with Genesis, and I certainly wouldn't dare go along to a Moody Blues concert and respond rudely to anything I didn't recognise.


Excellent move, TOCCC is IMO the best album if you like concepts and it's their most difficult, but rewarding album. Get A Question of Balance next, it's wall to wall quality ythat will his you right between the ears from first listen. It's Up to You is the song that got me into them.

For info, members are Justin (Guitars voc, some keyboards and sitars and stuff) John Lodge (vocals, bass, guitars, cello etc) Graeme Edge (drums) Ray Thomas (vocals, flute, harmonica) and Mike Pinder (vocals, Keyboards, some guitar) who almost single-handedly introduced the Mellotron to the rock world, having worked for the manufacturer, Streetly Electronics, as a set up engineer on the production line.
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question Re: The Carpet Crawlers: A good ending to TIOA sho
« Reply #43 on: Aug 22nd, 2017, 2:43pm »

on Aug 19th, 2017, 12:20pm, foxfeeder wrote:
Excellent move, TOCCC is IMO the best album if you like concepts and it's their most difficult, but rewarding album. Get A Question of Balance next, it's wall to wall quality ythat will his you right between the ears from first listen. It's Up to You is the song that got me into them.

For info, members are Justin (Guitars voc, some keyboards and sitars and stuff) John Lodge (vocals, bass, guitars, cello etc) Graeme Edge (drums) Ray Thomas (vocals, flute, harmonica) and Mike Pinder (vocals, Keyboards, some guitar) who almost single-handedly introduced the Mellotron to the rock world, having worked for the manufacturer, Streetly Electronics, as a set up engineer on the production line.

Thanks. smiley
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xx Re: The Carpet Crawlers: A good ending to TIOA sho
« Reply #44 on: Aug 29th, 2017, 05:01am »

on Aug 18th, 2017, 09:24am, StarOfSirius wrote:
Shit like this is why I detest it when mainstream audiences start to take notice of musical acts I enjoy. It's not that I necessarily want my favourite artists to remain obscure, but these so-called "casual fans" invariably just ruin it for those of us who actually understand and appreciate the music on a deeper level.




While I'd have loved them to have done those tracks you mentioned, I completely disagree with the sentiments above. No fans, "so-called casual" or otherwise, are ruining anything for anyone. Any band worth its salt will choose to perform what they most feel like doing. I certainly hope that's the approach taken by the bands I love. If you feel anything was "ruined", surely it would be by the band themselves. Where I might tentatively nudge towards agreeing with what you said, is that I think it's a shame if an audience member doesn't give unfamiliar material a chance, they could be more open to it. But I reject the notion of a sort of fan hierarchy. If other fans are enjoying a gig in their own personal way, fair play to them. I say the same thing to people who think that a fan just sitting and absorbing the music is somehow not enjoying it properly compared to one who gets up and grooves. We all enjoy and appreciate stuff in our own way.
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