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 veryhotthread  Author  Topic: A bit of Jazz  (Read 4530 times)
HENRY
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xx Re: A bit of Jazz
« Reply #15 on: Jan 20th, 2014, 12:53pm »

on Jan 20th, 2014, 06:16am, Witchwood wrote:
Thought crossed my mind to mention Brand X in my short list but wasn't sure if any jazz aficionados among us might be dismissive.
("that's not jazz, that's fusion") wink


"Fusion" has generally been accepted as a legitimate form of jazz, although there are traditionalists who still haven't come to terms with it. Pretty much anything that brings rock, funk and/or R&B elements into a jazz style is considered fusion, so everyone from Weather Report to Mahavishnu Orchestra to Spyro Gyra to Jaco Pastorius to Pat Metheny to Return To Forever to anyone (generally) incorporating rock and R&B rhythms or electric instruments would fall into that category.




« Last Edit: Jan 20th, 2014, 12:59pm by HENRY » User IP Logged

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santibanks
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xx Re: A bit of Jazz
« Reply #16 on: Jan 20th, 2014, 1:03pm »

on Jan 20th, 2014, 12:53pm, HENRY wrote:
so everyone from Weather Report to Mahavishnu Orcheastra to Spyro Gyra to Jaco Pastorius to Pat Metheny to Return To Forever to anyone (generally) incorporating rock and R&B rhythms or electric instruments would fall into that category.


And fusion is perhaps even wider then that. Most jazz after Miles' Bitches Brew is probably some kind of fusion. I think that the categorization of jazz has mostly to do with the "vocabulary" used. Bebop for example has a specific musical idiom that is used and what makes it bebop (as opposed to for example modal jazz). Fusion is the huge category where everything fits into that uses an idiom not associated with just one particular category but has a blend of idioms. It's maybe a bit difficult to describe for non improvising musicians, but it's basically borrowing idioms from various other categories and blend it to 1 thing.

If I take Pat Metheny for example, the first phrase in his solo could be bluesy (pentatonic), the second phrase could be derrived from a more expansive bebop idiom, the third phrase could be something that is very Coltrane like (think Giant Steps harmonies), etc.
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Feadogastain
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xx Re: A bit of Jazz
« Reply #17 on: Jan 22nd, 2014, 05:18am »

on Jan 20th, 2014, 1:03pm, santibanks wrote:
I think that the categorization of jazz has mostly to do with the "vocabulary" used...

by jazz critics. wink
It is also said that music must swing or be blues based to be jazz, but I'm afraid it is not that easy to define.

I don't think those labels are that useful; the fact is that sometimes I have missed good mucisicians because of them.

As a general rule, I prefer traditional instruments, but I always go for "untraditionally" played music whatever the instrument. It is great when jazz musicians step where they are not supposed to, as The Bad Plus with Tom Sawyer or Nirvana or Brad Melhdau with Paranoid Android.

When I think of jazz, fusion, improvisation, risk and creativity are the terms that always come to mind. As long as I can feel that in musicians, it's OK, even if I dislike what I'm listening to; for example, Bill Frissell with his "americana" stuff or those noises from Pat Metheny
rolleyes tongue
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xx Re: A bit of Jazz
« Reply #18 on: Jan 22nd, 2014, 05:45am »

on Jan 17th, 2014, 1:53pm, boredatwork wrote:
I don’t like to write off the whole genre which is quite varied, but I never listen to jazz voluntarily, largely because my mum used to inflict Cleo Laine on us, which was excruciating! rolleyes


cheesy cheesy cheesy I Hope it was not the one with James Galway shocked

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xx Re: A bit of Jazz
« Reply #19 on: Jan 22nd, 2014, 05:59am »

Some of the favorites I keep listening through the years apart from the big names):

Kenny Wheeler
John Taylor (piano)
Jimmy Giuffre
Bill Evans (piano)
Enrico Rava
Jim Hall
Lester Young
Allan Holdsworth
Gerry Mulligan
Shelly Manne
Charles Lloyd (ECM period)
Django Reindhart



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santibanks
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xx Re: A bit of Jazz
« Reply #20 on: Jan 22nd, 2014, 5:53pm »

on Jan 22nd, 2014, 05:18am, Feadogastain wrote:
by jazz critics. wink

I would say that a jazz critic is not really "entitled" to categorize music as it is not done from an objective base (like in musical sciences) but rather subjective base. Critics handle subjectively by design. That's what they are critics for grin

Quote:
It is also said that music must swing or be blues based to be jazz, but I'm afraid it is not that easy to define.

Blues is probably a genre on its own (or a genre within jazz) but jazz certainly doesn't need to be blues based. Thank god it isn't, otherwise we would be listening to the same 12 bar chord sequences and the same pentatonic licks over and over again… (as you might have guessed, I'm not a blues fan at all, too predictable as its form is pre-determined and its vocabulary is very strict)

Quote:
I don't think those labels are that useful; the fact is that sometimes I have missed good mucisicians because of them.


As a general rule, I prefer traditional instruments, but I always go for "untraditionally" played music whatever the instrument. It is great when jazz musicians step where they are not supposed to, as The Bad Plus with Tom Sawyer or Nirvana or Brad Melhdau with Paranoid Android.

When I think of jazz, fusion, improvisation, risk and creativity are the terms that always come to mind. As long as I can feel that in musicians, it's OK, even if I dislike what I'm listening to; for example, Bill Frissell with his "americana" stuff or those noises from Pat Metheny
rolleyes tongue

Certainly true. Musicians usually move between genres. As you mentioned Metheny, he has this Americana based roots in his playing (hear his early stuff) but is also no stranger to avant garde/free jazz (with Philip Bailey or Ornette Coleman or even some of the tunes he wrote for the PMG like Offramp and Scrap Metal), or even something more modern like his latest output Tap (which is one of John Zorn's book of Angels).

But what I meant with vocabulary/idiom (and to use it to determine fusion music), if you play the blues and solo with Coltrane or Bebop licks over it. Its not blues by any mean. That makes it fusion. Same if I play blues licks over Giant steps (good luck with that btw…) or any bebop standard.

As the "no supposed to" is concerned, I would exactly expect paranoid android and other pop/rock tunes to be played by Brad Mehldau, just as I expect a Thelonius Monk tune from Esbjörn Svensson or Chick Corea. I think that especially for musicians like this, anything can and needs to be expected from them because at one point in their career, they will probably do it…
Thats maybe also the difference between rock/pop and jazz: jazz is a form of art in the sense that "self expression" and "self development" are a big part of the process. That means that musicians reinvent themselves and push their own boundaries and limits. Having a unique voice is very important for them, though I admit that a lot of musicians don't have this ability to have their personal unique voice on their instrument that is immediately recognizable.
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xx Re: A bit of Jazz
« Reply #21 on: Jan 22nd, 2014, 6:14pm »

on Jan 20th, 2014, 06:16am, Witchwood wrote:
Thought crossed my mind to mention Brand X in my short list but wasn't sure if any jazz aficionados among us might be dismissive.
("that's not jazz, that's fusion") wink


Brand X definitely sit well in my eyes as being jazz-rock,and deserve to be mentioned on this thread.
Personally i enjoy the more modern jazz,especially albums that are related to the German label ECM.They have some marvellous artists on their roster including Jan Garbarek ( sax),Keith Jarrett ( piano),John Abercrombie (guitar), Tord Gustavsen (piano),and many, many others.Even the brilliant Pat Metheny (who's new Unity album will be released in February), used to be on ECM roster.Well worth checking out ECM huge catalogue.
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xx Re: A bit of Jazz
« Reply #22 on: Jan 23rd, 2014, 06:53am »

on Jan 22nd, 2014, 5:53pm, santibanks wrote:
I would say that a jazz critic is not really "entitled" to categorize music as it is not done from an objective base (like in musical sciences) but rather subjective base. Critics handle subjectively by design. That's what they are critics for grin
Well, of course they are subjective, but many haven't noticed yet smiley. What I was trying to say is that there is (or used to be) a sector that consider jazz as something fixed that should go along to certain parameters (Coltrane and many other have suffered this), maybe the Police Schrottrocker was referring to before. Not my opinion at all, by the way.

on Jan 22nd, 2014, 5:53pm, santibanks wrote:
Blues is probably a genre on its own (or a genre within jazz) but jazz certainly doesn't need to be blues based. Thank god it isn't, otherwise we would be listening to the same 12 bar chord sequences and the same pentatonic licks over and over again… (as you might have guessed, I'm not a blues fan at all, too predictable as its form is pre-determined and its vocabulary is very strict).


You won't find me listening to blues neither, but the way I see it, blues acts as a starting point to develop music or improvise, as some sort of seed; that is not necessarily related with licks and scales, but also to sound, rhythm, song forms, expressiveness.

For example, the Jorge Pardo's video (it is amazing how he adapted his playing (even the headjoint of his flute ) to be able to to reproduce Flamenco singers inflections) or Bill Frisell Americana (I was referring to him, not to Pat Metheny, sorry for the confusion) based on country and bluegrass.


By the way, Bill Frisell what an inmense musician shocked
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAHWE-w4vXU
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xx Re: A bit of Jazz
« Reply #23 on: Jan 23rd, 2014, 08:38am »

on Jan 22nd, 2014, 5:53pm, santibanks wrote:
Thats maybe also the difference between rock/pop and jazz: jazz is a form of art in the sense that "self expression" and "self development" are a big part of the process. That means that musicians reinvent themselves and push their own boundaries and limits. Having a unique voice is very important for them, though I admit that a lot of musicians don't have this ability to have their personal unique voice on their instrument that is immediately recognizable.


That's it, you nailed it wink
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xx Re: A bit of Jazz
« Reply #24 on: Jan 25th, 2014, 03:59am »

I'm listening to Lester Young this morning cool

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb3TkmCm06M
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HENRY
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xx Re: A bit of Jazz
« Reply #25 on: Jan 25th, 2014, 7:33pm »

on Jan 22nd, 2014, 5:53pm, santibanks wrote:
Thats maybe also the difference between rock/pop and jazz: jazz is a form of art in the sense that "self expression" and "self development" are a big part of the process. That means that musicians reinvent themselves and push their own boundaries and limits. Having a unique voice is very important for them, though I admit that a lot of musicians don't have this ability to have their personal unique voice on their instrument that is immediately recognizable.


I'd say that describes a lot of rock/pop artists as well.
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xx Re: A bit of Jazz
« Reply #26 on: Jan 26th, 2014, 12:01pm »

on Jan 25th, 2014, 7:33pm, HENRY wrote:
I'd say that describes a lot of rock/pop artists as well.


I'd say that describes a lot of artists in any music scene.
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xx Re: A bit of Jazz
« Reply #27 on: Jan 26th, 2014, 12:59pm »

on Jan 25th, 2014, 7:33pm, HENRY wrote:
I'd say that describes a lot of rock/pop artists as well.


Not entirely in the sense that rock/pop music are much more of an (entertainment) industry then jazz.
Pushing your own boundaries means having a very critical attitude to what you do and invest heavily in improvement/development. There are certainly musicians who do that in rock/pop, but it's not a "norm" like it is in jazz.
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xx Re: A bit of Jazz
« Reply #28 on: Feb 14th, 2014, 03:31am »

In Theo Travis' Earth to Ether I came across several songs sung by Richard Sinclair!!! shocked, The Book is specially beautiful, I love his voice cheesy
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xx Re: A bit of Jazz
« Reply #29 on: Feb 14th, 2014, 8:53pm »



Favourite bands
Barbara Thompson's Paraphernalia
Collesseum
Brand X
Soft Machine
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