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 veryhotthread  Author  Topic: Some observations about Tony  (Read 5369 times)
Fabrizio
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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #45 on: May 25th, 2017, 2:07pm »

on May 25th, 2017, 1:48pm, onetwothree wrote:
Every time I hear about Steve wanting each of the four guys to write 25% of WIND & WUTHERING, I wonder... did he think Phil was prepared at that point to contribute 25% of a Genesis album? (PS: By my best estimate, Steve actually did write close to 25% of W&W.)


Hard to say what Steve had in mind at the time, what seems pretty much established is that he seemed to think the equal share system was feasible for the band and yes, he did contribute a lot to W&W and I incidentally like everything he brought to the table there.
I always thought the instrumentals are underrated and Bolood on the Rofftops is one of the best songs on the Album.
Of course, you are correct about All things must pass, I had the vinyl, never bought the CD and it's been a while.
« Last Edit: May 25th, 2017, 2:22pm by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #46 on: May 25th, 2017, 2:09pm »

on May 25th, 2017, 2:07pm, CyanideWand wrote:
I think ATMP is Beatle quality.


Which of their record for instance compare to ATMP or viceversa, in terms of quality? Which songs are still considered classics after all these years? Which songs apart from the title track and My sweet lord for which if I remeber correctly he lost a plagiarism lawsuit, are even remembered today? Finally if I remember correctly apart from the two above mentioned only Beware of the Darkness was performed at the Concert for George.
« Last Edit: May 25th, 2017, 2:21pm by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #47 on: May 25th, 2017, 5:59pm »

on May 25th, 2017, 2:09pm, Fabrizio wrote:
Which of their record for instance compare to ATMP or viceversa, in terms of quality? Which songs are still considered classics after all these years? Which songs apart from the title track and My sweet lord for which if I remeber correctly he lost a plagiarism lawsuit, are even remembered today? Finally if I remember correctly apart from the two above mentioned only Beware of the Darkness was performed at the Concert for George.
'

What Is Life, for a start, plus Isn't It A Pity, Apple Scruffs, The Ballad Of Sir Frankie Crisp, Awaiting On You All, Art Of Dying. Those are great songs.
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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #48 on: May 26th, 2017, 03:28am »

steve shouldn't have complained so much. in other bands, one member writes 100% of the songs (mark knopfler in dire straits, martin gore in depeche mode...) and the rest 0%.
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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #49 on: May 26th, 2017, 03:50am »

on May 26th, 2017, 03:28am, Kerry95 wrote:
steve shouldn't have complained so much. in other bands, one member writes 100% of the songs (mark knopfler in dire straits, martin gore in depeche mode...) and the rest 0%.


That's great when the bands are known for that system (Crowded House and Neil Finn is another) but Genesis has always called itself a songwriter's collective. I mean up until Pete left there was no individual crediting on the album. I think Steve was within his right to voice an opinion and correct to leave when he did
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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #50 on: May 26th, 2017, 10:45am »

Man I think All Things Must Pass is a masterpiece. At the concert for George they also played Wah Wah and isn't It A Pity BTW. Here Me Lord, Let It Down, and I'd Have You Any Time are some of my favorites. In the period 69-70 George's songwriting was at it strongest and he was in my opinion equal with John and Paul then.

In regards to Tony I think just open about his opinions like the rest. He seems to be just as critical on his own stuff as much as the others.
« Last Edit: May 26th, 2017, 10:47am by BlinkeredArcade » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #51 on: May 26th, 2017, 11:20am »

on May 25th, 2017, 5:59pm, FeelItComing wrote:
'

What Is Life, for a start, plus Isn't It A Pity, Apple Scruffs, The Ballad Of Sir Frankie Crisp, Awaiting On You All, Art Of Dying. Those are great songs.


I should go back and listen to them, as I said, it's been a while, the point is though I could just as easily reply that they are not, they are just OK, but in doing that, I would remain, like you, in the personal opinions and preferences territory, I don't seem to remember those songs being mentioned when talking about George's songwriting skills or memorable songs, I really don't know whether they charted or have been performed live or covered by other artists. Then of course we all like what we like, we are entitled to, no matter how niche. Personally I have a different concept of 'Great Songs' which doesn't have to be right of course.
« Last Edit: May 26th, 2017, 1:53pm by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #52 on: May 26th, 2017, 11:23am »

on May 26th, 2017, 10:45am, BlinkeredArcade wrote:
In the period 69-70 George's songwriting was at it strongest and he was in my opinion equal with John and Paul then.


While I don't entirely agree with that, I believe that during that period, given John's increasing lack of intrest towards the band and Paul's self indulgence and commercial streak more George's songs could have ended up on the White Album, Let it Be and Abbey Road.
« Last Edit: May 26th, 2017, 1:49pm by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #53 on: May 26th, 2017, 2:20pm »

on May 26th, 2017, 03:50am, Yild4Genesis wrote:
I think Steve was within his right to voice an opinion and correct to leave when he did


I agree with you and I actually think he should have been more assertive earlier on. The problem with Steve as I see it though, seemed to be he didn't know exactly what he wanted. Up to SEBTP by his own admission he saw himself as a player not a songwriter, btw I think he should have fought Tony more over soloes, playing time and arrangements in general. Then evidently something must have changed with the Lamb and why not? People evolve, because at a time where the band needed to prove themselves, he goes out to record a solo album. Can you imagine if Tony had done that? On Trick again his contribution in terms of songwriting is not gigantic, although brilliant imo and again he is buried by Tony in the final mix. Then on W&W, where he does have more space, suddenly, he has this not very smart idea of being entitled to 25% of the album. Then he leaves Genesis, has a solo career but goes back to revisit Genesis...Twice. Man!!
« Last Edit: May 26th, 2017, 2:24pm by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #54 on: May 26th, 2017, 8:46pm »

on May 26th, 2017, 11:20am, Fabrizio wrote:
I should go back and listen to them, as I said, it's been a while, the point is though I could just as easily reply that they are not, they are just OK, but in doing that, I would remain, like you, in the personal opinions and preferences territory, I don't seem to remember those songs being mentioned when talking about George's songwriting skills or memorable songs, I really don't know whether they charted or have been performed live or covered by other artists. Then of course we all like what we like, we are entitled to, no matter how niche. Personally I have a different concept of 'Great Songs' which doesn't have to be right of course.


I don't think a song has to have been covered or performed live to be a great song. I agree this is only personal opinion but getting back to Tony himself, he didn't exactly have a lot of chart success, but I would hope many Genesis fans would agree that he did some 'great' solo work. Great in the sense that we enjoy the songs. But regarding ATMP, I believe that What Is Life IS a 'great' song, even if the others I mentioned perhaps are not.
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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #55 on: May 27th, 2017, 06:02am »

on May 26th, 2017, 8:46pm, FeelItComing wrote:
I don't think a song has to have been covered or performed live to be a great song. I agree this is only personal opinion but getting back to Tony himself, he didn't exactly have a lot of chart success, but I would hope many Genesis fans would agree that he did some 'great' solo work. Great in the sense that we enjoy the songs. But regarding ATMP, I believe that What Is Life IS a 'great' song, even if the others I mentioned perhaps are not.

You are of course right, I was just trying to toss around ideas, a way to determine what constitues a great song a bit beyond the fact whether we like it or not. Being a hit also doen't mean a song is great but it certainly makes it memorable. Imo only a few George's songs are, that's what I meant. Tony did some good solo word but imo not comparable to what he did in Genesis.
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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #56 on: May 27th, 2017, 08:19am »

on May 26th, 2017, 2:20pm, Fabrizio wrote:


I agree with you and I actually think he should have been more assertive earlier on. The problem with Steve as I see it though, seemed to be he didn't know exactly what he wanted. Up to SEBTP by his own admission he saw himself as a player not a songwriter, btw I think he should have fought Tony more over soloes, playing time and arrangements in general. Then evidently something must have changed with the Lamb and why not? People evolve, because at a time where the band needed to prove themselves, he goes out to record a solo album. Can you imagine if Tony had done that? On Trick again his contribution in terms of songwriting is not gigantic, although brilliant imo and again he is buried by Tony in the final mix. Then on W&W, where he does have more space, suddenly, he has this not very smart idea of being entitled to 25% of the album. Then he leaves Genesis, has a solo career but goes back to revisit Genesis...Twice. Man!!


After Foxtrot Steve took part in the recording of 'The Two Sides of Peter Banks' which seems to have been quite liberating for him. He appears to have been a lot more confident on Selling England with bringing in his own ideas. The Lamb didn't leave too much space for individual ideas because everything had to serve the concept of the album. After Peter left it was unclear if Genesis would continue at all, for a while everybody procrastinated the decision: Phil recorded with Brand X, Mike recorded with Ant, Steve recorded his solo album that contains everything he could not introduce in The Lamb or previous albums. It was Tony who called the others back to Genesis. During the recordings of Trick Steve was absent for a while because he was mixing his solo album, with all the ideas he had put into VOTA he had not left too much to add to Trick. W&W was when things finally clashed, he had written Please Don't Touch and Hoping Love Will Last, both were song ideas he could never hope to win the trio for so he had to choose between holding back his input or leave. The result was a sublime Hackett solo album (Please Don't Touch) and a mediocre Genesis album (ATTWT) which speaks loud and clear Steve did the right thing. About him revisiting the old Genesis songs, I don't see the problem with that. He has fond memories of the time nonetheless and loves the music that was produced even if it didn't last - if you've been divorced 20 years ago you can still cherish the good times you spent together.
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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #57 on: May 27th, 2017, 09:24am »

on May 27th, 2017, 08:19am, Schrottrocker wrote:
After Peter left it was unclear if Genesis would continue at all, for a while everybody procrastinated the decision: Phil recorded with Brand X, Mike recorded with Ant, Steve recorded his solo album that contains everything he could not introduce in The Lamb or previous albums. It was Tony who called the others back to Genesis. During the recordings of Trick Steve was absent for a while because he was mixing his solo album, with all the ideas he had put into VOTA he had not left too much to add to Trick. W&W was when things finally clashed, he had written Please Don't Touch and Hoping Love Will Last, both were song ideas he could never hope to win the trio for so he had to choose between holding back his input or leave. The result was a sublime Hackett solo album (Please Don't Touch) and a mediocre Genesis album (ATTWT) which speaks loud and clear Steve did the right thing. About him revisiting the old Genesis songs, I don't see the problem with that. He has fond memories of the time nonetheless and loves the music that was produced even if it didn't last - if you've been divorced 20 years ago you can still cherish the good times you spent together.


Actually, speaking about the Lamb, from a musical point of view a lot of ideas were required, on a couple of occasions they didnít have enough music for the story, if I remember correctly this is how Carpet Crawlers was written, so there was room enough for everybody to pitch in.
Whatever Mike, and Phil did after the Lamb did not interfere with the Bandís schedule and as far as I remember, it was the press and some fans who were unsure whether the band would continue or not, the band themselves had never any doubt. They were perhaps unsure whether to continue as an instrumental ensemble, or what kind of singer to get or even whether they were going to be successful without Peter but I donít remember they ever considered calling it quit and by the end of the tour things were settled.
Steveís absence from the initial session of Trick can be interpreted in many ways: lack of commitment on Steveís part? The band thought he was expendable? Philosophical acceptance of a given fact? Who knows? I donít.
What I think is correct however, is that they wouldnít have moved on with those sessions without Phil, Mike and Tony, I think we can all agree with that.
I agree that ATTW3 was not their best album, personally I donít find Please donít touch sublime though, the title track doesnít do much for me and for the band either apparently and as for Hoping Love Will Last, I think even Steve admitted it was better suited for a female vocalist. That said I have little doubt that Steveís contribution could have improved ATTW3, whether enough to Ďsaveí the album I donít know, I never saw him as a driving force.
Of course Steve can revisit Genesis music anytime he pleases, I personally respect more Peterís attitude, even though at times I found a bit extreme.
« Last Edit: May 27th, 2017, 09:38am by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #58 on: May 27th, 2017, 1:28pm »

We seem to have wandered off topic here. To "Get Back" (pun):

Tony is a very talented songwriter and keyboard player, but he has faults.

He is unwilling to delegate.

He writes in a very "mathematical" way (by his own admission, from one of Armando's books)

He is poor at arranging his own stuff on his own. Not alone in this, Brian May is very talented, but without external input, he tends to go a bit "heavy metal" and sadly he is not even very good at it.

Discuss..... grin
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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #59 on: May 27th, 2017, 1:48pm »

on May 27th, 2017, 1:28pm, foxfeeder wrote:
We seem to have wandered off topic here. To "Get Back" (pun):

Tony is a very talented songwriter and keyboard player, but he has faults.

He is unwilling to delegate.

He writes in a very "mathematical" way (by his own admission, from one of Armando's books)

He is poor at arranging his own stuff on his own. Not alone in this, Brian May is very talented, but without external input, he tends to go a bit "heavy metal" and sadly he is not even very good at it.

Discuss..... grin

I agree with everything.
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