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 veryhotthread  Author  Topic: Some observations about Tony  (Read 7423 times)
CyanideWand
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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #10 on: May 17th, 2017, 7:35pm »

I'd like to meet Phil.
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rael1974
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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #11 on: May 17th, 2017, 9:18pm »

on May 17th, 2017, 7:35pm, CyanideWand wrote:
I'd like to meet Phil.


Wouldn't we all?
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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #12 on: May 17th, 2017, 9:36pm »

Diva? The central heating plumbing, chicken keeping, garden tending, campervan driving, keyboard player? .. no.

Watch Come rain or shine, or the Mama documentary, 3 extraordinary guys creating great music, eating sausage and tomato on toast, drinking Mateus Rose, and having a ball.

In their younger days, they were all less mature, more prolific/creative, and there were more songwriters trying to get their bits into 40 minutes of vinyl. That's going to lead to debates.

Having good quality control is what makes a good record, if you had to choose between Octopus's garden and The long and winding road, should you choose the former because it's fairer? Should you lie about which is your favourite track 35 years later when asked? The lamb has some strong bits, some weak bits, is too long, has a crap cover, and after all these years I still haven't got a clue what the story is about.

Somehow Tony has become the whipping boy since his comments in the famous documentary have been blown out of all proportion, mostly due to the misunderstanding of English humour/irony. Friends and colleagues often have digs at each other, there is no malice behind it.

The comment about Phil is a joke. If it isn't obvious, there's a beaming smile at the end of the sentence just in case.

Tony and Mike are the backbone of the group

Peter and Steve left 4 decades ago, of their own accord - it's a little odd for fans to still be holding a grudge about it after so long.

No Tony, no Genesis, no forum.




« Last Edit: May 17th, 2017, 10:25pm by ftf » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #13 on: May 18th, 2017, 03:20am »

Banks comes across as a stubborn (by his own admission) and strong-willed, determined person who has very clear ideas about what he wants and is prepared to dig himself in and not budge in order to achieve those things. That's had a lot to do with how he's been a major factor in driving Genesis along, together with his very distinctive writing style and strong feel for chord sequences that's given the band such a particular style.

Some of the remarks mentioned above are indeed to do with his dry English humour. Both he and Rutherford have made comments on PC's solo success that were intended as affectionately mocking, I don't see how they could be taken any other way. On his own solo work, I'm guessing that as probably the main driving force behind Genesis's music he felt he might transfer that into a successful solo career and clearly felt he came up with some good songs, which he did. Why it never took off for him is a whole other discussion, but I can see it must have been quite hard for him to watch the others have their success while his stuff made little impact.

In the Sum documentary he does come across as a bit grumpier than usual; maybe he wasn't feeling at his best. It's often hard to comment on these things as TV documentaries usually get edited to within an inch of their lives and the final product can be very unrepresentative of the actual thing. Add in that the group interview was also split into pieces and scattered across the programme, and you end up with something that could possibly come across as misleading.

In one of the solo interviews in that show, if I remember correctly, TB unfavourably compares Hackett's playing on Firth with Stuermer's and says something like, SH's playing could be "dry". Or am I imagining that?! If not, I have to completely disagree - SH's original was an economical thing of beauty whereas DS went over the top and made it way too fussy.

The Lamb is always going to be controversial in one way or another - it was a difficult album to make for various well-documented reasons so will always have certain connotations for the band. I love it, but can understand their varying feelings about it. Plus, at the time, after all the effort and trouble it briefly appeared at number10 for a week then pretty much vanished, following the previous album's good chart run and reaching number 3. I recall Rutherford saying that many people refer to it as a classic now, but at the time it "died a death". So they are going to have pretty mixed feelings about it.
« Last Edit: May 18th, 2017, 03:27am by Backdrifter » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #14 on: May 18th, 2017, 07:10am »

on May 17th, 2017, 4:05pm, CyanideWand wrote:
I have definitely seen Phil make dismissive comments about Steve's work, both in interviews and in his autobiography, although I think they get along personally. I wonder to what extent his opinion on this was influenced by Mike and Tony?

Again, it depends on how you choose to see it, personally I hardly consider it 'dismissive'. Steve sumbmitted some songs, the others didn't like them or thought there were better songs, that's about it, hardly dismissive imo.
Incidentally I think they were right, much as I like Steve's playing I never rated him highly as songwriter, still don't, also remember that he started writing quite late and what he contributed to Genesis is imo still some of the best stuff he did but he wanted 25% of the album and that is not a great idea.
As for Phil's opinion, I think he must at least be credited with the ability to make up his own mind.
« Last Edit: May 18th, 2017, 07:32am by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #15 on: May 18th, 2017, 07:37am »

True, but there is a difference between your opinion being influenced and borrowed.
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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #16 on: May 18th, 2017, 08:48am »

on May 18th, 2017, 07:37am, CyanideWand wrote:
True, but there is a difference between your opinion being influenced and borrowed.


So it couldn't just be a case where Phil thought that Steve's songs weren't as 'good' as Mike's and Tony's in that moment? I cannot know obviously but it seems to me all Genesis members were always quite clear about what they llike or else, it might lead to frictions within a band but I believe it's the only healthy way to go about it, otherwise you simply allocate 25% of the record to each member which I don't really think is smart.
Look at George Harrison with the Beatles, some might argue he had it rough there as a songwriter, some others, including myself simply may think that John and Paul were better.
« Last Edit: May 18th, 2017, 09:07am by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #17 on: May 18th, 2017, 10:29am »

I'm not saying that it can't be as you say--just that we don't know one way or the other.

It's not uncommon to be influenced by opinions. We are influenced by what we watch on TV, by what our friends say, etc.

For example, when Phil was unpopular in the 90s and universally hated, my opinion was different than what it is now. I only admitted to liking his first two albums. My opinion has changed now partly because of age, but also because it's not the "in thing" to hate Phil anymore so I am more free to admit my tastes.
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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #18 on: May 18th, 2017, 3:12pm »

on May 18th, 2017, 07:10am, Fabrizio wrote:
Again, it depends on how you choose to see it, personally I hardly consider it 'dismissive'. Steve sumbmitted some songs, the others didn't like them or thought there were better songs, that's about it, hardly dismissive imo.
Incidentally I think they were right, much as I like Steve's playing I never rated him highly as songwriter, still don't, also remember that he started writing quite late and what he contributed to Genesis is imo still some of the best stuff he did but he wanted 25% of the album and that is not a great idea.
As for Phil's opinion, I think he must at least be credited with the ability to make up his own mind.


Couldn't have started writing that late. He was the first to release a solo album after all...
wink
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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #19 on: May 18th, 2017, 3:21pm »

on May 18th, 2017, 3:12pm, Yild4Genesis wrote:
Couldn't have started writing that late. He was the first to release a solo album after all...
wink

Up to SEBTP he never thought of himself as a writer, he said it himself quite a number of times in several interviews. Whether this was due to lack of self-confidence, lack of intrest or pehaps the fact that he joined a group that had already a group of writers I don't know but it's quite established. Things might have changed with the Lamb due to the fact perhaps that it was a double album and everyone was encouraged to pitch in.
« Last Edit: May 18th, 2017, 5:03pm by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #20 on: May 18th, 2017, 7:49pm »

on May 17th, 2017, 9:36pm, ftf wrote:
Diva? The central heating plumbing, chicken keeping, garden tending, campervan driving, keyboard player? .. no.

Watch Come rain or shine, or the Mama documentary, 3 extraordinary guys creating great music, eating sausage and tomato on toast, drinking Mateus Rose, and having a ball.

In their younger days, they were all less mature, more prolific/creative, and there were more songwriters trying to get their bits into 40 minutes of vinyl. That's going to lead to debates.

Having good quality control is what makes a good record, if you had to choose between Octopus's garden and The long and winding road, should you choose the former because it's fairer? Should you lie about which is your favourite track 35 years later when asked? The lamb has some strong bits, some weak bits, is too long, has a crap cover, and after all these years I still haven't got a clue what the story is about.

Somehow Tony has become the whipping boy since his comments in the famous documentary have been blown out of all proportion, mostly due to the misunderstanding of English humour/irony. Friends and colleagues often have digs at each other, there is no malice behind it.

The comment about Phil is a joke. If it isn't obvious, there's a beaming smile at the end of the sentence just in case.

Tony and Mike are the backbone of the group

Peter and Steve left 4 decades ago, of their own accord - it's a little odd for fans to still be holding a grudge about it after so long.

No Tony, no Genesis, no forum.



I completely agree & this is how I reacted to Tony when I first saw Sum Of The Parts. I knew nothing about him but I got his dry humour at once. If you are married to an Englishman it's easy to spot. People should also watch him accept his Prog Rock award from Peter; he is hilarious. '12th best keyboards player? Who the f*k were the other 11'? He is also fascinating to watch in Come Rain Or Come Shine. He's a very talented man.

« Last Edit: May 18th, 2017, 7:55pm by FeelItComing » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #21 on: May 19th, 2017, 04:08am »

on May 18th, 2017, 08:48am, Fabrizio wrote:
So it couldn't just be a case where Phil thought that Steve's songs weren't as 'good' as Mike's and Tony's in that moment? I cannot know obviously but it seems to me all Genesis members were always quite clear about what they llike or else, it might lead to frictions within a band but I believe it's the only healthy way to go about it, otherwise you simply allocate 25% of the record to each member which I don't really think is smart.
Look at George Harrison with the Beatles, some might argue he had it rough there as a songwriter, some others, including myself simply may think that John and Paul were better.


My guess is Steve's problem was only a certain type of his musical ideas were accepted. He had a fair share in Wind and Wuthering (middle part of Eleventh Earl, Blood on the rooftops, Unquiet Slumbers, first half of In that quiet Earth) and Tony praised Entangled and Blood On The Rooftops, yet Steve could never win the others for stuff like Please Don't Touch or A Tower Struck Down. They already frowned on his contributions to Moonlit Knight and Dance On A Volcano. So there you go, he constantly had to hold back his wilder side and it is understandable it became a frustrating situation for him.
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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #22 on: May 19th, 2017, 1:09pm »

When I see or read the interviews I'm under the impression that all of them were at one point or another quite clear about what they didn't like or in their opinion went wrong.
Peter got tired of the chorus of I know what I like but liked his bits, he didn't like the others' lyrics, he thought the keyboards solos were too much.
Phil didn't like Peter's costumes, the way they got in the way of the music, how basically Peter ruined The Battle of Epping Forest with the lyrics the fact they never seem to be edgy enough.
Steve didn't appreciate being buried in the final mix, the fact that his songs didn't make the final cut, feeling constantly like junior member.
Mike didn't like the lyrics to Watcher of the skies and the way it developed, same with Dancing with the Moolight Knight.
Tony was no different, perhaps less diplomatic, if he saw or heard something he didn't like he just said so but I think they all shared some sort of common respect and admiration which allowed them to speak their mind freely without being personal, resentful or jealous.
« Last Edit: May 19th, 2017, 1:10pm by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #23 on: May 19th, 2017, 2:58pm »

on May 19th, 2017, 04:08am, Schrottrocker wrote:
They already frowned on his contributions to Moonlit Knight and Dance On A Volcano.

They did?
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xx Re: Some observations about Tony
« Reply #24 on: May 19th, 2017, 4:08pm »

on May 19th, 2017, 1:09pm, Fabrizio wrote:
When I see or read the interviews I'm under the impression that all of them were at one point or another quite clear about what they didn't like or in their opinion went wrong.
Peter got tired of the chorus of I know what I like but liked his bits, he didn't like the others' lyrics, he thought the keyboards solos were too much.
Phil didn't like Peter's costumes, the way they got in the way of the music, how basically Peter ruined The Battle of Epping Forest with the lyrics the fact they never seem to be edgy enough.
Steve didn't appreciate being buried in the final mix, the fact that his songs didn't make the final cut, feeling constantly like junior member.
Mike didn't like the lyrics to Watcher of the skies and the way it developed, same with Dancing with the Moolight Knight.
Tony was no different, perhaps less diplomatic, if he saw or heard something he didn't like he just said so but I think they all shared some sort of common respect and admiration which allowed them to speak their mind freely without being personal, resentful or jealous.


That's life in a band though, isn't it? Five guys all with differing views coming together to make something special but still five individuals ....
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