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Topic: Keyboard advice (Read 2913 times) |
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tonybanksfan
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Keyboard advice
« Thread started on: Mar 25th, 2012, 6:09pm » |
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My first post,just registered. If I were to buy only 1 keyboard to replicate the majority of Tony's sounds throughout Genesis's music old to new, what keyboard should I buy? I'm not in a band now but you never know maybe someday. Love his organ sounds, especially the resonance on FYFM.
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jkleban
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Re: Keyboard advice
« Reply #1 on: Mar 25th, 2012, 6:57pm » |
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I maybe in the minority here but I would purchase an 88 key MIDI controller and a 61 key midi controller and then use samples of only the instruments Tony used in both periods.
The PC to run them on is another story for the road but even Tony used a "RECEPTOR" live.
Otherwise, one keyboard and getting TBs sounds will be a huge compromise in substituting sounds.
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tonybanksfan
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Re: Keyboard advice
« Reply #2 on: Mar 25th, 2012, 9:17pm » |
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I know it's impossible to cover everything,so maybe I should alter my question to, Where do I start with just 1 keyboard? I don't understand MIDI or sampling so I guess I'm asking which brand or model would get me underway?
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jkleban
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Re: Keyboard advice
« Reply #3 on: Mar 26th, 2012, 07:27am » |
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Do you have access to a PC? If so, there are MANY midi keyboard controllers to choose from and the single most supported format for sample programs is a product called KONTAKT. Kontakt comes with a bunch of sampled instruments (like 40 gigs worth) and many of TB's keyboards have been sampled.
The MIDI side is automatic when you connect your keyboard to your computer via a MIDI/Audio card which there are plenty of as well.
The question becomes how much money do you have in your budget?
Jim
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tonybanksfan
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Re: Keyboard advice
« Reply #4 on: Mar 26th, 2012, 11:23am » |
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I do have a PC I could use,and my budget would be about $2500 cdn. I think you pointing me in a direction though that will require a lot of time and effort learning a lot of new things when I don't have too much time to dedicate to it. I'm a bit of an old dog trying to learn a new trick you know,I was hoping for a simpler plug and play approach. Thank-you for your help,I appreciate it.
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LosEndosKeys
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Re: Keyboard advice
« Reply #5 on: Mar 26th, 2012, 12:26pm » |
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Hi
I agree with your train of thought - I am always worried that a PC based setup is going to crash, based on my extensive work with PCs and thefact they ALWAYS do!
And I agree that the plug in route is unnecessarily complicated. Nothing like getting your hands on proper switches and knobs (ohh er missus).
My suggestion is to think about the synth/organ/Mellotron/piano combinations he used in all the early/middle era and start there.
If you want to try to get as many of those original Tony Banks sounds on one keyboard in "plug and play" fashion, then you really need to buy something from Roland.
You can fulfil this by buying either a sound module like the JV1080/2080/3080 and plugging in the Keyboards of the 60s70s card and buy a controller keyboard,
OR
by buying one of the older synths that these cards will fit.
The choice is limited to the XP80/Fantom 76 for non-weighted or the XV88 for weighted keyboard.
The Keys of the 60s 70s card was full of samples collected by a Genesis nut - you will recognise them instantly...e.g. "Organ Banks" is a bit of a giveaway!
This way you will get all the RMI/Pianet piano sounds, lots of Hammond sounds, most of the Mellotron sounds and some synth sounds you can tweak to sound like an ARP or MiniMoog.
Thats the main thing that is missing...ARP sounds.
No-one has them.
The only alternative after that is to buy a sampling keyboard and hunt out the samples........good luck with that!
And the only problem is you will really need to have three keyboards to do it properly..........
R
Alan
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| « Last Edit: Mar 26th, 2012, 1:21pm by LosEndosKeys » |
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BriTheCrawler
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Re: Keyboard advice
« Reply #6 on: Mar 26th, 2012, 12:40pm » |
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Just my tuppence worth,
The Crawlers have used 'VST' sounds from day one, initially on a laptop!!!! Yes a laptop!!! But inevitably it did start crashing after a while, although it did make us appreciate system resources when creating sounds and Fx etc.
Now we use a purpose custom built rackmount PC with Quad-core processing and shedloads of RAM and SS Hard drives and to date haven't had any problems and that's even after taking it on the road across Europe.
I think once you get your head around how to use the VST and FX it's infinitely better than most modern keyboards, remember a lot of Tony's old sounds were standard instruments but what went to vinyl was sometimes through effects, EQ and compressors so I think that's where the benefit of the VST comes in, sure all modern keyboards have onboard EQ and effects etc. but to me they just always sound a bit 'plastic' for want of a better word lol.
Recently Andy got hold of a Muse Receptor and we copied all the data across to that and have to say there was a slight difference in sound (we couldn't make our mind up if it was better or worse lol) but it handled it beautifully and especially on long distance one off gigs this will become SO handy as all the keyboard splits/zones can be made in the Receptor software.
Like the guys have said, there's loads of different ways to do it and none are right or wrong, it's just down to what results you want to achieve 
Hope this helps,
Bri.
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The_Winkler
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Re: Keyboard advice
« Reply #7 on: Mar 26th, 2012, 12:58pm » |
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Well besides the Roland that LosEndosKeys did so well to point out. A PC2 or PC3 Kurzweil would get you most of Tony's obscure old sounds like the RMI, Pianet, organs, mellotrons...
The new PC3 series would do it just out of the box. A PC2 would need a Classic Keys expansion.
Nords with the sample library would get you most of Tony's old sounds too... but Electros don't split the keyboard into two zones, so it's not a good only keyboard to have, and Stages are expensive...
But of course, a new Korg Kronos could sample extremely well whatever sounds it doesn't have...
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LosEndosKeys
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Re: Keyboard advice
« Reply #8 on: Mar 26th, 2012, 1:19pm » |
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on Mar 26th, 2012, 12:58pm, The_Winkler wrote:Well besides the Roland that LosEndosKeys did so well to point out. A PC2 or PC3 Kurzweil would get you most of Tony's obscure old sounds like the RMI, Pianet, organs, mellotrons...
The new PC3 series would do it just out of the box. A PC2 would need a Classic Keys expansion.
Nords with the sample library would get you most of Tony's old sounds too... but Electros don't split the keyboard into two zones, so it's not a good only keyboard to have, and Stages are expensive...
But of course, a new Korg Kronos could sample extremely well whatever sounds it doesn't have... |
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Alas the sticking point is the ProSoloist - can't be reproduced on a sampler.
My ProSoloist+ Rack is 100% in that regards.
And actually neither can anything else be sampled properly if you want to modify it while playing...........unless it's Korg on the Kronos of course......
R
Alan
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| « Last Edit: Mar 26th, 2012, 1:20pm by LosEndosKeys » |
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BriTheCrawler
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Re: Keyboard advice
« Reply #9 on: Mar 26th, 2012, 1:25pm » |
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Apparently Al, Korg are meant to be bringing out a new sound set with Pro Soloist sounds on?
Andy has a Kronos and yeah it's an impressive piece of kit, be interesting to see what they're like. 
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LosEndosKeys
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Re: Keyboard advice
« Reply #10 on: Mar 26th, 2012, 2:39pm » |
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on Mar 26th, 2012, 1:25pm, BriTheCrawler wrote:Apparently Al, Korg are meant to be bringing out a new sound set with Pro Soloist sounds on?
Andy has a Kronos and yeah it's an impressive piece of kit, be interesting to see what they're like. |
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Hi Bri
If it's sampled then it's limited.
You can't modify the sounds as you would on the ProSoloist because it is modifying the waveforms in realtime and in complex ways.
To reproduce it you have to do so like the ProSoloist Rack made by Verghese - by producing the original waveforms then applying the variations like growl and brilliance in the same way as the original.
Be interesting to see how they fare with it though......
R
Alan
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tonybanksfan
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Re: Keyboard advice
« Reply #11 on: Mar 26th, 2012, 3:20pm » |
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Wow,tons of great info. So I'm more comfortable with the out of the box ready to play setup, so maybe I should look at narrowing it down to a Korg Kronos, Kurzweil PC3,or a Roland xv88 with a sound module and 60-70's card. Then I would need another keyboard for solo's as well. Could I get away with a 2 keyboard setup? Are these ARP Prosoloists still available on the market or could I substitute something else that's similar. I only have a small budget so I don't know if I could do it. Korg's and Kurzeils are expensive, no?
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CSM
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Re: Keyboard advice
« Reply #12 on: Mar 26th, 2012, 3:36pm » |
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Another vote for the Kurzweil PC3 series. VSTs are a nice thing to have and I use them a lot, but I think for a beginner it's beneficial to get at least one 'proper' keyboard. It allows for much more comfortable rehearsing and gigging with a band if you should feel so inclined at some point. While the Kurzweils cannot faithfully emulate a Pro Soloist, they are capable of producing analogue synth leads that work in the context of Genesis songs and as has been said, they're well-stocked with Hammonds, Mellotrons and electric pianos. The digital sounds Tony used in the later days can be emulated pretty well on just about any modern synth anyway, and the Kurzweils have very complex and powerful sound and effect engines.
I'm not sure what a PC3K8 (the top model with sampling and 88 note keyboard) costs in Canada, but if you're very lucky you might even get a deal on one for $2,500. Or you could get a PC3LE and still have money left for an audio card and a number of plug-ins. A few hundred for halfway decent monitor speakers should also figure into the equation, unless you have a good stereo system you can feed the synth into.
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LosEndosKeys
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Re: Keyboard advice
« Reply #13 on: Mar 26th, 2012, 4:31pm » |
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on Mar 26th, 2012, 3:20pm, tonybanksfan wrote:| Wow,tons of great info. So I'm more comfortable with the out of the box ready to play setup, so maybe I should look at narrowing it down to a Korg Kronos, Kurzweil PC3,or a Roland xv88 with a sound module and 60-70's card. Then I would need another keyboard for solo's as well. Could I get away with a 2 keyboard setup? Are these ARP Prosoloists still available on the market or could I substitute something else that's similar. I only have a small budget so I don't know if I could do it. Korg's and Kurzeils are expensive, no? |
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can't be done on less than three keyboards - been there, done that, got the t-shirt, made the video etc etc
The Kronos is $2900+.
You have to FIND an XV88 - there aren't many around.
You have to FIND a working ProSoloist.
Don't even THINK about a ProSoloist if you have any intention of gigging.
I use a Roland XP30 - you could put the Synth card in it..
Any way, you need deep pockets.......
PS For the organ sound you need a Hammond XK3C with MXR Phase 100 pedal....... more money
R
Alan
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| « Last Edit: Mar 26th, 2012, 4:33pm by LosEndosKeys » |
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jkleban
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Re: Keyboard advice
« Reply #14 on: Mar 26th, 2012, 9:18pm » |
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So, I knew I would bring out all the hardware guys out there.... I am just saying if you want to sound just like "TONY", you either have to buy all the original keyboards (like some of us fanatics have done) and hope that they all still work (most of them need to be recapped they are so old).. or take the route of using samples, which I have done with all these old vintage keyboards.
Alan is correct in that the synths that modify waveforms in real time aren't the same as using samples which can only be slightly modified in real time (AKA - The Pro Soloist). My PRO is so old, I have to let it warm up for about an hour before a sampling session... the RACK MOUNT that ALAN has is a much better solution to the REAL ARP sound. Not sure that the guy still makes them in that I haven't heard much from him the last few years. But by all means, stay away from the ARP PROSOLOvst plugin ... this was done purely mathematically (which in itself is quite impressive) but most of the patches sound close but they aren't quite correct and the aftertouch implementation is way off compared to a REAL ARP.
And the more I delve into the studio sounds of GENESIS the more I realize how difficult it is to recreate the same sounds as was recorded even with the same instruments.. it is a journey that has taught me very much about GENESIS and recording methods. Almost as much fun learning this stuff as it was learning how to play the instrument parts.
Anyway, if you want quick and EZ then I agree that buying ONE KEYBOARD that can do a decent job at many sounds would be the right way to go and if you pursue this further, you can always add on to your tool box (but beware, this can become expensive if you are as obsessive as many of us are around here).
Good luck with whatever path you take and if I can be of any help, just ask.
Jim
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| « Last Edit: Mar 26th, 2012, 9:21pm by jkleban » |
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