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 veryhotthread  Author  Topic: Me and Sarah Jane  (Read 1419 times)
Fabrizio
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xx Re: Me and Sarah Jane
« Reply #15 on: Dec 19th, 2017, 11:00am »

on Dec 19th, 2017, 10:36am, TonyEdwards wrote:
Commercial success does not necessarily equate to quality. Trespass wasn't a commercial success, but in my opinion is a work of great artistic merit.

Of the songs you mention:

- Paperlate was a Top 10 hit in the UK and a Top 40 hit in the US;
- No Reply At All was a Top 40 hit in the US (wasn't released in the UK); and
- Another Record and Like It Or Not were not released as singles, so I'm not sure how we're supposed to assess their "commercial success".

I completely agree with you: commercial success is not tantamount to artistic quality. I just made that point because it often comes up in the disputes between old and new eras fans, where you have the old fan claiming some sort of artistic value, whereas the new fans cling to the commercial success. In al fairness, the latter is measurable, the former not so much but as I said, I am with you and I adore Trespass.
As for the songs in question: a top 40 in the US is hardly a smash-hit, leaving other artists aside , feel free to compare it with how and where, meaning in how many countries, their following singles charted. I spare you the time, there is no comparison.
Like it or not and Another record were not released as single, you are right, I wonder why though, they are both commercially oriented songs and LION has been called by some fans a great pop song but evidently not so great to be even considered for a single release and with that we assessed I guess its commercial success.
AR is quite simply a filler and we shouldn't even be talking about it.
So in recap: sales were OK, not fantastic, old fans base not happy and as for the band, it's not like they kept playing any of those songs live for much longer.
« Last Edit: Dec 19th, 2017, 11:02am by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Me and Sarah Jane
« Reply #16 on: Dec 19th, 2017, 11:35am »

on Dec 19th, 2017, 11:00am, Fabrizio wrote:
As for the songs in question: a top 40 in the US is hardly a smash-hit, leaving other artists aside , feel free to compare it with how and where, meaning in how many countries, their following singles charted. I spare you the time, there is no comparison.
Like it or not and Another record were not released as single, you are right, I wonder why though, they are both commercially oriented songs and LION has been called by some fans a great pop song but evidently not so great to be even considered for a single release and with that we assessed I guess its commercial success.
AR is quite simply a filler and we shouldn't even be talking about it.
So in recap: sales were OK, not fantastic, old fans base not happy and as for the band, it's not like they kept playing any of those songs live for much longer.


The Abacab sessions spawned four US Top 40 hits (compared with just two (Follow You Follow Me and Misunderstanding) before that): No Reply At All, Abacab, Man On The Corner, and Paperlate. In the UK, the sessions gave the band two Top 10 hits (Abacab and Paperlate), and one Top 40 hit (Keep It Dark), as well as a near miss (Man On The Corner at number 41).

Why were Like It Or Not and Another Record not released as singles? In 1981, three singles from an album was about the norm (and in any case Another Record was the B-side to Abacab).

So in recap: Abacab was the band's biggest selling album to date, and delivered several hit singles. What came later doesn't change that. And there are many songs from the band's back catalogue that they rarely played live after the tour to promote the particular album, which in my opinion are fantastic (Blood On The Rooftops must be dreadful by your reasoning).
« Last Edit: Dec 19th, 2017, 11:51am by TonyEdwards » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Me and Sarah Jane
« Reply #17 on: Dec 19th, 2017, 12:20pm »

I'd have liked something from Abacab on the 07 tour, there is the often-told story of the title track being rehearsed until PC said he didn't want to do it due to the lyrics. Pity, I like the words and the disconnected oddness of them - one of my favourite Genesis lyrics is "When you wake and find you're covered in cellophane/There's a hole in there somewhere". Despite loving M&SJ, if the 3SL version is anything to go by, it didn't work well live.

I agree that the early disappearance of tracks on tours is a red herring in this context. Ones that were either fan favourites or hit singles that got pulled 1 to 2 tours after they first appeared, and maybe at most reappeared as brief snippets:

DWTMK (never played properly again, maybe once in 78?)
Entangled
Eleventh Earl
Burning Rope
BTL, Duchess, Duke's Travels/End
That's All
The Brazilian
Ripples had to wait 2 tours before being aired then only lasted 2 tours until resurrected (incomplete) in 07.
The Cinema Show was only played in full on 3 tours.
Salmacis only got aired on 2 or 3 tours.

I admired this in a way, that they could be very unsentimental about their material but it could be frustrating too as I'd have liked BTL to have lasted longer. They considered it as the opener on the WCD tour before opting for LoC.
« Last Edit: Dec 19th, 2017, 12:24pm by Backdrifter » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Me and Sarah Jane
« Reply #18 on: Dec 19th, 2017, 12:21pm »

on Dec 19th, 2017, 11:35am, TonyEdwards wrote:
The Abacab sessions spawned four US Top 40 hits (compared with just two (Follow You Follow Me and Misunderstanding) before that): No Reply At All, Abacab, Man On The Corner, and Paperlate. In the UK, the sessions gave the band two Top 10 hits (Abacab and Paperlate), and one Top 40 hit (Keep It Dark), as well as a near miss (Man On The Corner at number 41).

Why were Like It Or Not and Another Record not released as singles? In 1981, three singles from an album was about the norm (and in any case Another Record was the B-side to Abacab).

So in recap: Abacab was the band's biggest selling album to date, and delivered several hit singles. What came later doesn't change that. And there are many songs from the band's back catalogue that they rarely played live after the tour to promote the particular album, which in my opinion are fantastic (Blood On The Rooftops must be dreadful by your reasoning).

I am not sure why what came later, meaning putting things in context, shouldn't count. When reviewing Genesis career, their whole career, their hits are mentioned and measured in terms of sales but hey, if that's how you want to tackle it, ok. I love blood on the rooftops but those kind of songs, slow, alwayas have a hard time translating live, that shouldn't be an issue and surely it cannot be compared with uptempo songs which have charted and have been moderately, imo, or very iyo successful singles. It's easy to undertsand why they don't play Blood on the rooftops live, personally I can understand why they don't play Abacab, or Paperlate either: they have either more successful or better songs and in some cases both.
IT sounds dreadful to me but they have to play it, I understand the logic behind that.
« Last Edit: Dec 19th, 2017, 1:29pm by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Me and Sarah Jane
« Reply #19 on: Dec 19th, 2017, 4:13pm »

on Dec 19th, 2017, 12:20pm, Backdrifter wrote:
I agree that the early disappearance of tracks on tours is a red herring in this context. Ones that were either fan favourites or hit singles that got pulled 1 to 2 tours after they first appeared, and maybe at most reappeared as brief snippets:

DWTMK (never played properly again, maybe once in 78?)
Entangled
Eleventh Earl
Burning Rope
BTL, Duchess, Duke's Travels/End
That's All
The Brazilian
Ripples had to wait 2 tours before being aired then only lasted 2 tours until resurrected (incomplete) in 07.
The Cinema Show was only played in full on 3 tours.
Salmacis only got aired on 2 or 3 tours.

I admired this in a way, that they could be very unsentimental about their material but it could be frustrating too as I'd have liked BTL to have lasted longer. They considered it as the opener on the WCD tour before opting for LoC.


To be horribly pedantic, "Behind the Lines" appeared on 3 successive tours: Duke, Abacab, and the Three Sides Live "Encore" tour - the one which saw the resurrection of "Supper's Ready". I suppose you could argue that it doesn't count for much as there was no new material released since the previous tour, but it was a substantially different setlist. tongue
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Fabrizio
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xx Re: Me and Sarah Jane
« Reply #20 on: Dec 19th, 2017, 5:20pm »

on Dec 19th, 2017, 12:20pm, Backdrifter wrote:
I agree that the early disappearance of tracks on tours is a red herring in this context.

Yes and no, I guess. Some songs are simply not good live, that is not detrimental to the songs in itself. I had dreadful gigs experiences with some drunk shouting in my ears when I just wanted to listen to some songs. Usually the slower, more atmospheric songs suffer but sometimes, even rockier numbers take the blow. There's nothing preventing Deep in the Motherlode, to mention one, from being a good live song but I heard a couple of renditions and for some reason it falls flat. Now, Abacab for instance is a quintessential live song, if they dropped it, probably it wasn't based on the fact that it was unsuitable but, and bear in mind this is strictly my opinion, there's not much to it and gets tired very quickly. It sounds perhaps like a good idea at the moment but in time...
« Last Edit: Dec 19th, 2017, 8:06pm by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Me and Sarah Jane
« Reply #21 on: Dec 19th, 2017, 11:09pm »

on Dec 19th, 2017, 12:20pm, Backdrifter wrote:
I'd have liked something from Abacab on the 07 tour, there is the often-told story of the title track being rehearsed until PC said he didn't want to do it due to the lyrics. Pity, I like the words and the disconnected oddness of them - one of my favourite Genesis lyrics is "When you wake and find you're covered in cellophane/There's a hole in there somewhere". Despite loving M&SJ, if the 3SL version is anything to go by, it didn't work well live.

I agree that the early disappearance of tracks on tours is a red herring in this context. Ones that were either fan favourites or hit singles that got pulled 1 to 2 tours after they first appeared, and maybe at most reappeared as brief snippets:

DWTMK (never played properly again, maybe once in 78?)
Entangled
Eleventh Earl
Burning Rope
BTL, Duchess, Duke's Travels/End
That's All
The Brazilian
Ripples had to wait 2 tours before being aired then only lasted 2 tours until resurrected (incomplete) in 07.
The Cinema Show was only played in full on 3 tours.
Salmacis only got aired on 2 or 3 tours.

I admired this in a way, that they could be very unsentimental about their material but it could be frustrating too as I'd have liked BTL to have lasted longer. They considered it as the opener on the WCD tour before opting for LoC.


Interestingly, according to Tony Banks, Fountain of Salmacis was "horribly received" live.
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xx Re: Me and Sarah Jane
« Reply #22 on: Dec 20th, 2017, 05:28am »

on Dec 19th, 2017, 4:13pm, Merryman72 wrote:
To be horribly pedantic, "Behind the Lines" appeared on 3 successive tours: Duke, Abacab, and the Three Sides Live "Encore" tour - the one which saw the resurrection of "Supper's Ready". I suppose you could argue that it doesn't count for much as there was no new material released since the previous tour, but it was a substantially different setlist. tongue

That's not being pedantic, horribly or otherwise. It's correct, and I included the Encore tour in my "1 to 2 tours after first appearance" by not counting the Duke tour as this was the first appearance. That's being pedantic!
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« Reply #23 on: Dec 20th, 2017, 05:30am »

on Dec 19th, 2017, 11:09pm, WutheringNights76 wrote:
Interestingly, according to Tony Banks, Fountain of Salmacis was "horribly received" live.

Hmmm, that is indeed interesting. I assume he means 71-72 and that it was generally well-received in 78? On the mirrors tour I gather it was resurrected as a chance for the newly arrived DS to show what he could do.
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xx Re: Me and Sarah Jane
« Reply #24 on: Dec 20th, 2017, 05:56am »

on Dec 20th, 2017, 05:30am, Backdrifter wrote:
Hmmm, that is indeed interesting. I assume he means 71-72 and that it was generally well-received in 78? On the mirrors tour I gather it was resurrected as a chance for the newly arrived DS to show what he could do.


I guess so, for me its one of my top 3 Genesis tracks and I love the 1978 version despite no Peter or Steve (!), mostly because I love Tony's keyboard rig on this tour, it had a good mix of synths (ARP 2600 and Polymoog) the glorious Yamaha CP-70 as well as the old favourites like the Hammond organ and the Mellotron.

Unfortunately I can't remember where I got that quote from but I also remember TB saying that he was surprised by the fact that The Musical Box was so well received when it wasn't "half the song", so yes, that points towards it being in 1971 and 1972.

As for certain songs falling by the wayside, I suppose that's what happens when you organise your set from the newest album back!
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xx Re: Me and Sarah Jane
« Reply #25 on: Dec 20th, 2017, 06:37am »

The 78 version of FoS on 3SL is indeed very good but I always go back to the original, mainly for SH's typically economical end solo which I believe to be the start of something, a new sound. There's a plaintive element to it which eludes DS's accomplished but, to my ears, characterless version (something which I felt about much of his work and also applies to his overly fussy FoF solo).

I respect a band who base their live shows on their newest work. Okay it means it probably marginalises older stuff some of which I'd love to hear but I completely get the approach. Genesis were pretty mercenary about it which I know upset/frustrated some fans. The one thing that bothered me was the rigidity of their sets, especially on the later tours when very few or indeed no changes were ever made to the setlist. They tended to become a very unsurprising live band in that sense, unlike some who suddenly throw in a completely unexpected old one now and then.
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xx Re: Me and Sarah Jane
« Reply #26 on: Dec 20th, 2017, 08:05am »

on Dec 19th, 2017, 12:20pm, Backdrifter wrote:
I agree that the early disappearance of tracks on tours is a red herring in this context. Ones that were either fan favourites or hit singles that got pulled 1 to 2 tours after they first appeared, and maybe at most reappeared as brief snippets:

DWTMK (never played properly again, maybe once in 78?)


DWTMK was played on the 1980 Duke Tour, although it was only the intro.
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xx Re: Me and Sarah Jane
« Reply #27 on: Dec 20th, 2017, 08:45am »

on Dec 20th, 2017, 06:37am, Backdrifter wrote:
There's a plaintive element to it which eludes DS's accomplished but, to my ears, characterless version (something which I felt about much of his work and also applies to his overly fussy FoF solo).


Agree completely.
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xx Re: Me and Sarah Jane
« Reply #28 on: Dec 20th, 2017, 10:06am »

on Dec 19th, 2017, 12:21pm, Fabrizio wrote:
I am not sure why what came later, meaning putting things in context, shouldn't count. When reviewing Genesis career, their whole career, their hits are mentioned and measured in terms of sales but hey, if that's how you want to tackle it, ok. I love blood on the rooftops but those kind of songs, slow, alwayas have a hard time translating live, that shouldn't be an issue and surely it cannot be compared with uptempo songs which have charted and have been moderately, imo, or very iyo successful singles. It's easy to undertsand why they don't play Blood on the rooftops live, personally I can understand why they don't play Abacab, or Paperlate either: they have either more successful or better songs and in some cases both.
IT sounds dreadful to me but they have to play it, I understand the logic behind that.


Blood on the Rooftops was never going to be played after Steve left. They'd have to acknowledge his existence if they played it! wink
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xx Re: Me and Sarah Jane
« Reply #29 on: Dec 20th, 2017, 10:08am »

on Dec 20th, 2017, 08:45am, Fabrizio wrote:
Agree completely.


Ah the old SH v DS debate, as old as time! grin

As has been said before, Daryl is a fine, very capable guitarist, but SH he is not. Daryl is from the Patrick Moraz camp: "Why play 2 notes when 10000 will fit!"
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