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WutheringNights76
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xx Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
« Reply #30 on: Dec 14th, 2017, 07:28am »

on Dec 14th, 2017, 06:41am, Fabrizio wrote:
I am not sure about in the Cage, I think it was a collaborative effort based on MIke's idea but I really don't know. I might be confusing it with BINYC.


I believe Tony said In the Cage is a song he wrote on his own, Back in NYC definitely originated from a bass riff by Mike (I recall hearing about a five string bass?). Although, it's hard to regard any compositions on the Lamb as true solo compositions because they have lyrics by Peter.

Of course with the all songs written by Genesis credit on the early and later albums it's hard to know who wrote what, you have claims that make sense like Tony writing Seven Stones or Time Table on his own and Mike writing Harlequin on his own but other than that it's hard to know.
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xx Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
« Reply #31 on: Dec 14th, 2017, 07:53am »

on Dec 14th, 2017, 07:28am, WutheringNights76 wrote:
I believe Tony said In the Cage is a song he wrote on his own, Back in NYC definitely originated from a bass riff by Mike (I recall hearing about a five string bass?). Although, it's hard to regard any compositions on the Lamb as true solo compositions because they have lyrics by Peter.

Of course with the all songs written by Genesis credit on the early and later albums it's hard to know who wrote what, you have claims that make sense like Tony writing Seven Stones or Time Table on his own and Mike writing Harlequin on his own but other than that it's hard to know.


I think Tony has said (probably in one of the box set features) that some of the added twiddly bits on Back in NYC were "probably my fault" (or something like that), but yes I think the basic song was Mike's.
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xx Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
« Reply #32 on: Dec 14th, 2017, 08:08am »

on Dec 14th, 2017, 07:53am, Merryman72 wrote:
I think Tony has said (probably in one of the box set features) that some of the added twiddly bits on Back in NYC were "probably my fault" (or something like that), but yes I think the basic song was Mike's.


I personally don't think there are any "twiddly bits" on NYC! The little unaccompanied keyboard bridge of about 4 secs just after the "off we go" section sounds pure Banks to me.

It's a song that I'm sure will leave many here cold but it's in my top 10, kudos to MR if he's mainly responsible for it. I recall a comment in Q magazine when reviewing the 08 remaster, mentioning that song as a standout and saying "it could be from the early 80s, or now".
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xx Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
« Reply #33 on: Dec 14th, 2017, 08:24am »

on Dec 14th, 2017, 07:28am, WutheringNights76 wrote:
I believe Tony said In the Cage is a song he wrote on his own, Back in NYC definitely originated from a bass riff by Mike (I recall hearing about a five string bass?). Although, it's hard to regard any compositions on the Lamb as true solo compositions because they have lyrics by Peter.

Of course with the all songs written by Genesis credit on the early and later albums it's hard to know who wrote what, you have claims that make sense like Tony writing Seven Stones or Time Table on his own and Mike writing Harlequin on his own but other than that it's hard to know.


With the music and lyrics being so separated on The Lamb, I tend to think of them ads 'solo' when it's known or suggested that one person did the music. Like you I too am sure I've read a TB interview saying he wrote ITC.

From my memory these are all the PG-era ones where I think I've seen specific writing credits referenced:

For Absent Friends - PC/SH
Harlequin - MR
Watcher - lyrics TB/MR
Can Utility - first section SH, instrumental TB/PC/MR jam (and title PG!)
Horizons - SH (obviously....)
Lovers Leap & Guaranteed etc- music TB from university days
Willow Farm - PG
Apocalypse - TB/PC/MR jam
I Know - SH (riff)
Firth - TB
More Fool - MR/PC
Ordeal - SH 1st part, MR 2nd part
Cinema instrumental - TB/PC/MR jam
The Lamb title track - TB/PG
Fly - SH
Cage - TB
NYC (thanks to the above) - MR
Hairless - SH
Carpet C's - PG (in a hurry when realised a song was missing; the quickest he's ever worked in his entire career?!), 'finessed' by TB
Lilywhite - PC
Supernatural - SH
Lamia - TB
Scree - TB

Some of the above are vague in my mind, even vaguer is a very faint distant notion that It was credited largely to SH.

Post PG despite individual credits I've heard Pigeons was largely Banks and I recall him saying he wanted to see if he could write a song with only one note in. Collins says he wrote the MOTD lyric and Hackett said PC also wrote the words to Inside & Out.
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xx Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
« Reply #34 on: Dec 14th, 2017, 09:17am »

on Dec 14th, 2017, 08:08am, Backdrifter wrote:
I personally don't think there are any "twiddly bits" on NYC! The little unaccompanied keyboard bridge of about 4 secs just after the "off we go" section sounds pure Banks to me.

It's a song that I'm sure will leave many here cold but it's in my top 10, kudos to MR if he's mainly responsible for it. I recall a comment in Q magazine when reviewing the 08 remaster, mentioning that song as a standout and saying "it could be from the early 80s, or now".

One of their absolute best imo.
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xx Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
« Reply #35 on: Dec 14th, 2017, 7:34pm »

on Dec 14th, 2017, 08:24am, Backdrifter wrote:
With the music and lyrics being so separated on The Lamb, I tend to think of them ads 'solo' when it's known or suggested that one person did the music. Like you I too am sure I've read a TB interview saying he wrote ITC.

From my memory these are all the PG-era ones where I think I've seen specific writing credits referenced:

For Absent Friends - PC/SH
Harlequin - MR
Watcher - lyrics TB/MR
Can Utility - first section SH, instrumental TB/PC/MR jam (and title PG!)
Horizons - SH (obviously....)
Lovers Leap & Guaranteed etc- music TB from university days
Willow Farm - PG
Apocalypse - TB/PC/MR jam
I Know - SH (riff)
Firth - TB
More Fool - MR/PC
Ordeal - SH 1st part, MR 2nd part
Cinema instrumental - TB/PC/MR jam
The Lamb title track - TB/PG
Fly - SH
Cage - TB
NYC (thanks to the above) - MR
Hairless - SH
Carpet C's - PG (in a hurry when realised a song was missing; the quickest he's ever worked in his entire career?!), 'finessed' by TB
Lilywhite - PC
Supernatural - SH
Lamia - TB
Scree - TB

Some of the above are vague in my mind, even vaguer is a very faint distant notion that It was credited largely to SH.

Post PG despite individual credits I've heard Pigeons was largely Banks and I recall him saying he wanted to see if he could write a song with only one note in. Collins says he wrote the MOTD lyric and Hackett said PC also wrote the words to Inside & Out.


Musicwise, Inside and Out seems to be mainly Mike's; and Riding The Scree sounds like one of those typical Rutherford/Collins/Banks jam sessions with Mike coming up with an endlessly repeating riff and Tony doing freeform while Phil tries to follow both in equal amounts, kind of. It's really the same pattern you can observe in Apocalypse too or in the inital jam sessions that evolved into Epping Forest. Or later on sameways in Down and Out or even later in the instrumental part of Tonight Tonight Tonight.
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xx Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
« Reply #36 on: Dec 14th, 2017, 7:42pm »

on Dec 14th, 2017, 04:42am, Backdrifter wrote:
It's interesting isn't it. I'm sure you find it as odd that I much prefer D&O as I do that you prefer SFAND. I think these contrasts arise for a very positive reason, namely that they have such a range of styles within their work that even long-time dedicated fans have disagreements.

I recall you and I touched on this before, I think as part of a Lamb discussion. I said it's my favourite Genesis album and you said you bet I didn't like certain albums or songs and named some things off W&W and ATOTT and you were spot-on. My favourite Genesis stuff is usually the darker, edgier, harder areas, often the more un-Genesis-y ones. I can't get on with the twee stuff at all and Scenes encapsulates the very essence of twee Genesis that makes me cringe. If I were to play it - which I never do - I'd have to then immediately play The Waiting Room to blast away the intense sugariness!


I see your point, anyhow: is Down and Out that much of a dark, sinister song?
Thinking about it, I wonder why it doesn't appeal more to me. I am missing something in that song, I can't pinpoint at it - some quieter part that makes more contrast or some longer intro or instrumental outro or anything like that. It is too reduced to just being a loud rocky song and the 4/4 chorus part is a little too simple to me. Even though the keyboard solo is one of Tony's wickedest solos.
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xx Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
« Reply #37 on: Dec 15th, 2017, 05:17am »

on Dec 14th, 2017, 7:34pm, Schrottrocker wrote:
Musicwise, Inside and Out seems to be mainly Mike's;


Don't you mean Steve's?
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xx Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
« Reply #38 on: Dec 15th, 2017, 06:48am »

on Dec 15th, 2017, 05:17am, Merryman72 wrote:
Don't you mean Steve's?


No, Mike's by any means. Listen to Smallcreep's Day and you will understand. wink
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xx Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
« Reply #39 on: Dec 15th, 2017, 08:21am »

on Dec 15th, 2017, 06:48am, Schrottrocker wrote:
No, Mike's by any means. Listen to Smallcreep's Day and you will understand. wink


I guess I thought I had read somewhere that Steve took most of the credit, but perhaps I just made an assumption based on all the tales of how annoyed Steve was that it didn't get onto the album. You are right, it does sound very Mike.
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xx Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
« Reply #40 on: Dec 18th, 2017, 06:10am »

on Dec 14th, 2017, 7:34pm, Schrottrocker wrote:
Riding The Scree sounds like one of those typical Rutherford/Collins/Banks jam sessions with Mike coming up with an endlessly repeating riff and Tony doing freeform while Phil tries to follow both in equal amounts, kind of. It's really the same pattern you can observe in Apocalypse too

That's true. I'm unsure where i think i heard that RTS was TB but I agree with what you say. Same time sig as Apocalypse too?
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xx Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
« Reply #41 on: Dec 18th, 2017, 06:18am »

on Dec 14th, 2017, 7:42pm, Schrottrocker wrote:
I see your point, anyhow: is Down and Out that much of a dark, sinister song?
Thinking about it, I wonder why it doesn't appeal more to me. I am missing something in that song, I can't pinpoint at it - some quieter part that makes more contrast or some longer intro or instrumental outro or anything like that. It is too reduced to just being a loud rocky song and the 4/4 chorus part is a little too simple to me. Even though the keyboard solo is one of Tony's wickedest solos.

I suppose I meant that in general, the darker side of Genesis is what usually appeals to me more, rather than D&O itself being dark and sinister. That said, maybe it is to some extent, purely by comparison with the rather bright shiny saccharine chocoloate-boxyness of so much of the rest of the album.

D&O indeed doesn't have much contrast in it, apart from the intro which has a slight tension I like very much, annoyingly dispelled somewhat by a superfluous bit of bell-tinkling - a rare bad call by PC. But its straight-ahead loud clattering nature appeals to me and I like that it doesn't go down a more familiar Genesis route of quieter parts and instrumental outros etc. In that sense its relentlessness and the insistent one-note bassline reflect the directness implied in the lyrics - keep up the pressure, don't hedge your bets, right between the eyes, sink or swim, etc.
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xx Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
« Reply #42 on: Dec 18th, 2017, 07:54am »

on Dec 18th, 2017, 06:10am, Backdrifter wrote:
That's true. I'm unsure where i think i heard that RTS was TB but I agree with what you say. Same time sig as Apocalypse too?


Yep, both are non-compound 9/8. The other example of a Mike riff and Tony solo that I can think of is the 2nd half of Cinema Show, except that's in 7/8. I'm sure the weird arpeggios that play during the vocal part were Tony's.

I guess you can add Tony to the IKWIL credit for the chorus, which was his. I find it amusing that on one hand you have TB calling it an "incredibly strong moment" whereas you have PG saying "boy did I get tired of singing that one!"

As for Carpet Crawl I believe the chord sequence was Mike and Tony together and the vocal melody of lyrics was Peter's.
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xx Re: Rank the solo compositions (Tony/Mike/Phil)
« Reply #43 on: Dec 18th, 2017, 09:27am »

on Dec 18th, 2017, 07:54am, WutheringNights76 wrote:
I guess you can add Tony to the IKWIL credit for the chorus, which was his. I find it amusing that on one hand you have TB calling it an "incredibly strong moment" whereas you have PG saying "boy did I get tired of singing that one!"



Ah, interesting, that's one I hadn't known before but now you've said it, it sounds obvious. I'm with TB on that, it is a strong moment. Given that PG wouldn't have had to sing it for that long especially given it didn't appear on the Lamb tour, it shows how quickly he tired of it! It's mentioned elsewhere on this board PG got voted down regarding The Cinema Show instrumental, which he apparently didn't want on the album, but I read an interview where he said that it and Apocalypse were examples of stuff he had nothing to do with generating, but was "very proud" of being associated with them, so that bit at least he must have warmed to.
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