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Jan 23rd, 2018, 7:49pm



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 poll_icon  Poll  Poll Question: Which song do you prefer?
Man Of Our Times VotesVotesVotes 19 (65%)
Misunderstanding VotesVotesVotes 10 (34%)
Total votes: 29  
 veryhotthread  Author  Topic: Man Of Our Times vs. Misunderstanding  (Read 1012 times)
Backdrifter
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xx Re: Man Of Our Times vs. Misunderstanding
« Reply #15 on: Dec 7th, 2017, 03:34am »

on Dec 6th, 2017, 4:15pm, Dust wrote:
I quite like "Man Of Our Times". It has a fun, circus-like atmosphere but with a darker edge.


Wow. That is a take I've never heard before and would never have occurred to me. Definitely see the darker edge but not the "fun, circus-like" bit!

Misunderstanding is okay, and I definitely don't see it as more of a Collins solo piece. It's Genesis for sure but a lighter fluffier Genesis than most here would normally like. I prefer it to other examples of light frothy Genesis such as Robbery, Mouse's, Snowbound and Scenes From etc.
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xx Re: Man Of Our Times vs. Misunderstanding
« Reply #16 on: Dec 7th, 2017, 06:32am »

on Dec 6th, 2017, 3:52pm, WinstonWolf wrote:
If we're playing the "leave a song off Duke" game I'd have picked Alone Tonight by a mile....
But I also think Duke is such a great album because it had all three, not in spite of it.

To me, DUKE is one of those albums where even the lesser songs are essential, and any omissions or changes would not be an improvement.
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xx Re: Man Of Our Times vs. Misunderstanding
« Reply #17 on: Dec 7th, 2017, 08:02am »

on Dec 6th, 2017, 12:00pm, Fabrizio wrote:
The term Hackett-era always puzzled me. It's almost Christmas though and I don't feel feisty at all but someday I'd like to get to the bottom of that. wink


We have a saying in the UK (From an ad for Ronseal wood treatment) - "It does exactly what it says on the tin!" As does "Hackett-era". wink
« Last Edit: Dec 7th, 2017, 08:02am by foxfeeder » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Man Of Our Times vs. Misunderstanding
« Reply #18 on: Dec 7th, 2017, 08:24am »

on Dec 7th, 2017, 03:34am, Backdrifter wrote:
Misunderstanding is okay, and I definitely don't see it as more of a Collins solo piece. It's Genesis for sure but a lighter fluffier Genesis than most here would normally like. I prefer it to other examples of light frothy Genesis such as Robbery, Mouse's, Snowbound and Scenes From etc.

Personally, without obviously discussing taste and personal preferences, it is quite hard to agree with you on this. Musically, Misunderstanding is very dissonant on the album, it's Phil through and through and not even at his best imo. Up to that point at least, that wasn't Genesis at all. I can agree it was a step towards a newer version of the band but quite removed from them stylistically, at that time. The piano intro, whether one likes it or less is extremely uncharacteristic of Genesis and it's no wonder: piano or keyboards in Genesis mean Tony and he certainly didn't write that. Again, leaving personal preferences aside, if you compare the brief intro to Heathaze to that riff you'll understand what I mean. The former is Genesis, the latter....Not so much. No major surprise if you think the song was inspired, according to Phil by the Beach Boys and Hold the line by Toto. Hard for me to hear Genesis there. Lyrically, again there's nothing Genesis there, at least nothing we were used to and I am with Dust on this one, the lyrics are inane. I also don't think you can lump Misunderstanding together with the songs you mentioned or call them light frothy Genesis. I never liked Mouse but musically it's quite epic, it falls a bit flat for me but some instrumental passages are quite beautiful. I will concede that Robbery is not the strongest song on Trick but it is quite complex in terms of musicianship, the instrumental alone, sets it galaxies apart from stuff like Misunderstanding. Snowbound is a song I don't love but I don't skip either, musically quite straightforward but still Genesis, the lyrics are meant to create an atmosphere and conjure up images, all the others you mentioned deal with storytelling. I find Robbery humorous, I cannot possibly identify with a mouse's predicaments and I feel sorry for Phil having to sing that, I dislike Scenes musically and lyrically but if anything, all these songs aim quite high. They may arguably fail, according to one's taste but it is not for lack of ambition and that is one of the many differences with Misunderstanding.
« Last Edit: Dec 7th, 2017, 08:32am by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Man Of Our Times vs. Misunderstanding
« Reply #19 on: Dec 7th, 2017, 09:08am »

on Dec 7th, 2017, 08:02am, foxfeeder wrote:
We have a saying in the UK (From an ad for Ronseal wood treatment) - "It does exactly what it says on the tin!" As does "Hackett-era". wink

As I said, it's almost Christmas, we are all allowed and entitled to dream a bit... wink
« Last Edit: Dec 7th, 2017, 09:34am by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Man Of Our Times vs. Misunderstanding
« Reply #20 on: Dec 8th, 2017, 09:10am »

on Dec 7th, 2017, 08:24am, Fabrizio wrote:
Personally, without obviously discussing taste and personal preferences, it is quite hard to agree with you on this. Musically, Misunderstanding is very dissonant on the album, it's Phil through and through and not even at his best imo. Up to that point at least, that wasn't Genesis at all. I can agree it was a step towards a newer version of the band but quite removed from them stylistically, at that time. The piano intro, whether one likes it or less is extremely uncharacteristic of Genesis and it's no wonder: piano or keyboards in Genesis mean Tony and he certainly didn't write that. Again, leaving personal preferences aside, if you compare the brief intro to Heathaze to that riff you'll understand what I mean. The former is Genesis, the latter....Not so much. No major surprise if you think the song was inspired, according to Phil by the Beach Boys and Hold the line by Toto. Hard for me to hear Genesis there. Lyrically, again there's nothing Genesis there, at least nothing we were used to and I am with Dust on this one, the lyrics are inane. I also don't think you can lump Misunderstanding together with the songs you mentioned or call them light frothy Genesis. I never liked Mouse but musically it's quite epic, it falls a bit flat for me but some instrumental passages are quite beautiful. I will concede that Robbery is not the strongest song on Trick but it is quite complex in terms of musicianship, the instrumental alone, sets it galaxies apart from stuff like Misunderstanding. Snowbound is a song I don't love but I don't skip either, musically quite straightforward but still Genesis, the lyrics are meant to create an atmosphere and conjure up images, all the others you mentioned deal with storytelling. I find Robbery humorous, I cannot possibly identify with a mouse's predicaments and I feel sorry for Phil having to sing that, I dislike Scenes musically and lyrically but if anything, all these songs aim quite high. They may arguably fail, according to one's taste but it is not for lack of ambition and that is one of the many differences with Misunderstanding.


Misunderstanding has quite intriguing chord changes for Phil, I prefer it over a lot of his solo stuff. For me, the song goes perfectly with the flow of the album.

Why do I feel reminded of our discussion in the Lamb thread when I read your comments about Misunderstanding? You were the one who tried to disprove all the flaws I mentioned about the Lamb, basically saying I dislike the album for the wrong reasons and putting it in a nutshell with the words "it just doesn't resonate with you". Now how about you and Misunderstanding?... wink It just doesn't resonate with you.
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question Re: Man Of Our Times vs. Misunderstanding
« Reply #21 on: Dec 8th, 2017, 10:03am »

I also have never understood the hate for Misunderstanding. IMO it's a catchy tune with a nice groove, and although it was written by Phil, there are still many sound elements of Tony and Mike in there. (Meaning if Phil would've put it on Face Value instead, surely it would've sounded very different.)

Man of our Times on the other hand, is by far my least favorite track on Duke. It's a nice concept, but Phil's constant use of the trash cymbals and odd pacing kind of ruin it for me. IMO it would've sounded much better with just a straight drum rhythm, like what occurs finally at the fade out.
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question Re: Man Of Our Times vs. Misunderstanding
« Reply #22 on: Dec 8th, 2017, 10:14am »

Because Misunderstanding is one of those songs that introduced me to Genesis, I do not dislike it. There are songs on Duke I would under Misunderstanding. It's not as bad as people make it out to be. Now the live version, I can understand if people would dislike the version from 3SL as all that gibber jabber at the end of the song ruins it for me!
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xx Re: Man Of Our Times vs. Misunderstanding
« Reply #23 on: Dec 8th, 2017, 10:51am »

on Dec 8th, 2017, 09:10am, Schrottrocker wrote:
Why do I feel reminded of our discussion in the Lamb thread when I read your comments about Misunderstanding? You were the one who tried to disprove all the flaws I mentioned about the Lamb, basically saying I dislike the album for the wrong reasons and putting it in a nutshell with the words "it just doesn't resonate with you". Now how about you and Misunderstanding?... wink It just doesn't resonate with you.


I wouldn't know why you would be reminded of that..... Because it's on your mind and you can't let it go? I don't know really, to me this is absolutely unrelated and broaching it now, seems a bit far-fetched.
I also have to say, I think you are remembering or interpreting things incorrectly: I don't remember trying to disprove anything, apart from the notion that the Lamb was too simple or Peter sang differently which was an absolute first, in terms of reasons for disliking it but I certainly didn't dispute your right to dislike it and I suggested the resonating bit. It was just that....A suggestion.
The only thing I might have taken issues with and I still do, is the word '' flaws'' which interestingly enough you use every time when talking about the Lamb and you are using again. Saying you don't like something because it's flawed, sounds a bit...... Subjective to me. I truly don't care for Misunderstanding AND I don't believe it's a good fit but I would never say it's flawed. Now, it is absolutely possible my explanations won't satisfy you and since you seem to have a bone to pick, I am willing to address it but I would suggest you dig out THAT thread and we may continue.
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As for Misunderstanding, I agree, the chords sequence is uncharacteristic of Phil.....And Genesis.... The main difference being, with a little context in mind, that Phil had yet to release a record so it was difficult to tell at that time what was typical of him. Genesis, on the other end, had been around for over a decade and we had a quite defined and good idea of what they were about. It is not a stretch to say that those chords, that arrangement and those beautiful lyrics were something different, isn't it?
It should still be possible to like that song and admit that much, in fact, as some have said here and many more around throughout the years, it brought and drew new fans to the band, people who otherwise had no interest in them and their classical sound or never paid attention to them.
I like Please don't ask A LOT. I still don't think it's a Genesis song or that it flows well with the rest of the album. As you can see the two things: the subjective liking of a song and whether it flows well or less, are totally unrelated.
I personally believe, without debating the merits of the songs that Evidence of Autumn and Open Door would have been a more ''traditional'' fit, although not necessarily for a stronger album. Some people like variety, they are entitled to. I personally look for something else in Genesis. I believe I am entitled to that also. wink
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xx Re: Man Of Our Times vs. Misunderstanding
« Reply #24 on: Dec 8th, 2017, 12:52pm »

on Dec 8th, 2017, 10:03am, Billys_Number wrote:
Phil's constant use of the trash cymbals and odd pacing kind of ruin it for me. IMO it would've sounded much better with just a straight drum rhythm, like what occurs finally at the fade out.


It's interesting how much tastes can differ. Phil's lurching drum pattern and smashing away at what I think is a Chinese cymbal is one aspect that I love about this track. It rocks as hard as pretty much anything he has done.
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question Re: Man Of Our Times vs. Misunderstanding
« Reply #25 on: Dec 9th, 2017, 05:51am »

on Dec 8th, 2017, 12:52pm, Dr. John wrote:
It's interesting how much tastes can differ. Phil's lurching drum pattern and smashing away at what I think is a Chinese cymbal is one aspect that I love about this track. It rocks as hard as pretty much anything he has done.

It does indeed rock. Plus it's heavy, dark, brooding, abstract, melodic and full of unusual sounds... in other words it's typical prog Genesis to me.

That's why of all the Genesis songs that I love that others dislike, MOOT is the one where the opposition towards it makes the least sense to me. It has so many popular Genesis elements and yet there are more than a few here that think it sucks... and that sadly includes writer Mike Rutherford, who if I remember correctly, considers it the worst song he's ever written... shocked sad

I can understand not being fond of Rutherford's two other disliked tracks, YOSW and AT... although I love those songs, some people just aren't into ballads which is fine by me. I didn't used to like ballads much in the past.

But MOOT... I don't care what anyone says. It. Is. Just. Brilliant. cool And I encourage all here that dislike it to not give up on it.

And it might sound hypocritical, even arrogant of me to be so over-defensive of MOOT and yet so anti-Misunderstanding. But my reason for thinking Misunderstanding is very poor by Genesis standards is because it's the direct opposite of what I like about Genesis.

I like Genesis for being magical, fun, emotionally powerful, gripping, exciting and full of wonder, joy, imagination and spirit. That's why I like most of their pop songs because they managed to mix in those elements into their more accessible tracks. But Misunderstanding honestly to me just sounds like some guy whining for three minutes and the instrumentation just doesn't give me that Genesis feeling. Oh, and the "Woo-ooo" thing is just annoying! tongue

P.S. I've noticed that a lot of people don't like AIAMN either for the same reasons as MOOT. Maybe it's because MOOT and AIAMN have that "wall of sound" insta-blast of colourful melody, and that aspect doesn't grip some people.
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xx Re: Man Of Our Times vs. Misunderstanding
« Reply #26 on: Dec 9th, 2017, 05:54am »

on Dec 8th, 2017, 10:14am, HomeByTheSea wrote:
Now the live version, I can understand if people would dislike the version from 3SL as all that gibber jabber at the end of the song ruins it for me!

For me, listening to the live version made me laugh. I didn't think they could actually find a way to make it worse! laugh
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question Re: Man Of Our Times vs. Misunderstanding
« Reply #27 on: Dec 10th, 2017, 05:03am »

I like both songs. I voted for "Misunderstanding" probably out of sympathy because I actually think it's a pretty good pop song that gets a bad rap (and "Man of Our Times" can feel a bit tiresome sometimes with its relentlessness). I think both fit in well in the context of the album, and also are much better than "Alone Tonight" which is the only song on the album I could describe as a bit... lame. Nice enough, but a bit of a ballad-by-numbers with quite uninspired lyrics. I think "Open Door", while not a real stand-out song, is probably a lot better.
« Last Edit: Dec 10th, 2017, 05:05am by Merryman72 » User IP Logged

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question Re: Man Of Our Times vs. Misunderstanding
« Reply #28 on: Dec 10th, 2017, 1:12pm »

I love Misunderstanding. But Man Of Our Times is spine-tinglingly good, and gets my vote.
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question Re: Man Of Our Times vs. Misunderstanding
« Reply #29 on: Dec 16th, 2017, 12:59pm »

Other than Turn It On Again, these are the two best songs on the album IMO. My only criticism of either would be that the somewhat vague lyrics to Man of Our Times are not as strong as they could be. If the lyrics were a little better then Man of Our Times would be my choice, because musically it's fantastic. But Misunderstanding is just one of those perfectly executed pop songs. The hipsters who only like the prog rock stuff may hate it but I think it's great.
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