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Jan 23rd, 2018, 7:44pm



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 veryhotthread  Author  Topic: Since I Lost You  (Read 1164 times)
HENRY
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xx Re: Since I Lost You
« Reply #30 on: Nov 8th, 2017, 04:49am »

This all has much less to do with the song, and much more to do with the perceptions of fans and their expectations of the band.

In and of itself, "Since I Lost You" is a fairly nondescript composition; Phil has long attributed the inspiration of the track, and it's far from being a poor piece of songwriting. But, as usual, Genesis fans, in certain regards anyway, can't help but engage in the traditional prog ball scratching, lamenting the thought of Genesis offering up a "sentimental" themed song, a simple piece void of complicated arrangements and overwrought instrumental passages, and offering lyrics with a personal and emotional perspective.

Ah well, you can't win them all.
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xx Re: Since I Lost You
« Reply #31 on: Nov 8th, 2017, 05:05am »

on Nov 7th, 2017, 9:32pm, FlyOnAWindshield wrote:
Yes, Fabrizio beat me to what seems like the most obvious question. As I was reading this thread I was wondering why nobody made reference to Tears In Heaven?

As for me, SILY is rather neutral.I don't love it but I don't hate it either.

But I am rather curious to find out, for those that dislike the song so much, not for the music, but for what they consider a failed attempt to do deal with such a weighty theme, how do you rate Tears In Heaven. Did Eric Clapton miss the mark equally. Or did his tribute do the subject better justice? If so, was it because it was autobiographical for him, or is it simply a better crafted song.

Again, I am mostly impartial on the matter, just very curious how the two songs compare.


I wouldn't know really. If you ask me, I am probably not crazy about the song but out of respect I am not even able to engage any further. I couldn't say whether he missed the mark. It's his song, his son, his loss, his tragedy. I really can't put my finger on it, nor do I want to. We can all agree, I guess that under the circumstances he is entitled to.....whatever.
« Last Edit: Nov 8th, 2017, 06:32am by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

HomeByTheSea
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xx Re: Since I Lost You
« Reply #32 on: Nov 8th, 2017, 10:56am »

I haven't heard Tears in Heaven in years, but I do remember getting teary eyed when I heard it. So for me the song hit the mark. Just to set the record straight from my point of view, SILY (I can't help but read that as "silly" but it's far from it) I prefer the Phil Collins songwriters version over the Genesis WCD version. I think had Genesis chosen to make the song sound not so 50's-ish, I would have enjoyed it more. I know they were going for a totally different sound on that one, but next to Who Dunnit, this song sounds the least like Genesis IMO (post Gabriel).
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« Reply #33 on: Nov 8th, 2017, 11:59am »

on Nov 8th, 2017, 10:56am, HomeByTheSea wrote:
I haven't heard Tears in Heaven in years, but I do remember getting teary eyed when I heard it. So for me the song hit the mark. Just to set the record straight from my point of view, SILY (I can't help but read that as "silly" but it's far from it) I prefer the Phil Collins songwriters version over the Genesis WCD version. I think had Genesis chosen to make the song sound not so 50's-ish, I would have enjoyed it more. I know they were going for a totally different sound on that one, but next to Who Dunnit, this song sounds the least like Genesis IMO (post Gabriel).


I wonder if the Phil Collins version would have went well with the flow of the WCD album, wouldn't it have been out of place?

About Tears In Heaven, I guess Clapton succeeded in writing an authentic song about the incident; it's just weird how much perception and context etc. can colour your view on a song. I connect an embarassing memory with this song:

When I was in school choir in high school, we once had to sing in a church service for a retired teacher who had passed. We had our bunch of church songs that are suitable for a funeral service, however in the middle of it all our choir leader made us sing Tears In Heaven out of the blue. We had never ever rehearsed that song, we all were struggling through the lyrics we were not familiar with so we more or less murmured through the song. I have to point out that here in Germany English is the language of pop music which means entertainment music; church songs are in German, classical music is either way in German or Latin or Italian or French, English though is 99% pop music. Singing an English pop song in a funeral service felt unsuitable for me, it was as if we were singing some happy fun song - even though this song is quite serious, it still felt awkward we had to sing it. Most people here never bother with the meaning of lyrics when they are in English, a lot of people don't even realise Tears In Heaven is about a tragedy, it seems to be just some pretty ballad, I bet more than enough people would have no problem picking that song for a candle light dinner because it sounds nice and nobody cares for the lyrics. So maybe you see why it embarassed me back then. It's not the song's fault of course.
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xx Re: Since I Lost You
« Reply #34 on: Nov 8th, 2017, 1:33pm »

on Nov 8th, 2017, 10:56am, HomeByTheSea wrote:
I haven't heard Tears in Heaven in years, but I do remember getting teary eyed when I heard it. So for me the song hit the mark. Just to set the record straight from my point of view, SILY (I can't help but read that as "silly" but it's far from it) I prefer the Phil Collins songwriters version over the Genesis WCD version. I think had Genesis chosen to make the song sound not so 50's-ish, I would have enjoyed it more. I know they were going for a totally different sound on that one, but next to Who Dunnit, this song sounds the least like Genesis IMO (post Gabriel).

Certainly a more sober arrangement would have helped and I believe the storyteller version serves the purpose better but the gigantic problem with the song are imo the lyrics and they would screw up whatever stripped down version one could conceive. It's my opinion of course but they are simply bad beyond redemption, completely off mark.
« Last Edit: Nov 8th, 2017, 4:37pm by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

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« Reply #35 on: Nov 8th, 2017, 8:32pm »

Well, I don't remember hearing many successful lyrics where Phil has taken an "issue" (other than a boy-girl relationship) and written around that. Jesus He Knows Me is an exception. Even Driving The Last Spike, which most people seem to love, doesn't work IMO. So I get what Fabrizio is saying about Since I Lost You.
« Last Edit: Nov 8th, 2017, 8:33pm by Chaim » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Since I Lost You
« Reply #36 on: Nov 9th, 2017, 06:00am »

on Nov 8th, 2017, 8:32pm, Chaim wrote:
Well, I don't remember hearing many successful lyrics where Phil has taken an "issue" (other than a boy-girl relationship) and written around that. Jesus He Knows Me is an exception. Even Driving The Last Spike, which most people seem to love, doesn't work IMO. So I get what Fabrizio is saying about Since I Lost You.

I actually think Spike is good storytelling, as for the rest, apart from break up songs, when he was actually involved in a break up, I don't personally rate Phil's lyrics very high. I don't doubt the sincerity of his intentions, he is a father himself, Clapton is his friend, so he it must have been quite the shock and I am sure he meant it. I simply don't believe that he, as a writer, has the depth to address a subject like that.
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« Reply #37 on: Nov 9th, 2017, 06:21am »

on Nov 9th, 2017, 06:00am, Fabrizio wrote:
I actually think Spike is good storytelling, as for the rest, apart from break up songs, when he was actually involved in a break up, I don't personally rate Phil's lyrics very high. I don't doubt the sincerity of his intentions, he is a father himself, Clapton is his friend, so he it must have been quite the shock and I am sure he meant it. I simply don't believe that he, as a writer, has the depth to address a subject like that.


Interesting. So how do you rate a song like Please Don't Ask? Did you get to hear Phil talk about it on the Face Value Classic Albums documentary? After watching that segment, I would be inclined to completely disagree with your statement about Phil having the depth to address a subject about loss.
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xx Re: Since I Lost You
« Reply #38 on: Nov 9th, 2017, 06:44am »

on Nov 9th, 2017, 06:21am, HomeByTheSea wrote:
Interesting. So how do you rate a song like Please Don't Ask? Did you get to hear Phil talk about it on the Face Value Classic Albums documentary? After watching that segment, I would be inclined to completely disagree with your statement about Phil having the depth to address a subject about loss.

If you read carefully my post, I talked specifically about breakup songs, when he was actually involved in a breakup. In another thread about Duke, I described PDA as poignant and there are several songs he wrote on the subject which I personally find spot on: You Know What I Mean is another one and I am sure that going through his songbook, I would find other examples.
I think, I hope actually, there is no need to argue over the fact that losing somebody to death is not tantamount to breaking up with someone, divorcing, separating whatever, particularly when that loss is caused by an accident and particularly when it is about a child, a son.
I am told death is quite final, problems of the heart not so much. It is really not the same kind of loss, isn't it?
I think this is the main misunderstanding throughout this thread: the inability to acknowledge the difference between an unfortunate, sad situation and a real tragedy and the urge some fans feel to run in defense of their artist.
We all, I guess, are often at loss for words when facing those situations and there is no shame in it. So, yes, I truly don't believe that Phil, because of the kind of writer he is has it in him to tackle this subject, I am sorry you believe I am belittling him as an artist for this, it is not my intention. I am sure he though he had something of value there. I simply don't think he did. Again, I have to be redundant but the point seems to be lost on someone: If you can mistake a song about the death of child for yet another generic love song and virtually everybody did, something is not quite right.
« Last Edit: Nov 9th, 2017, 06:48am by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Since I Lost You
« Reply #39 on: Nov 9th, 2017, 07:37am »

on Nov 9th, 2017, 06:44am, Fabrizio wrote:
If you read carefully my post, I talked specifically about breakup songs, when he was actually involved in a breakup. In another thread about Duke, I described PDA as poignant and there are several songs he wrote on the subject which I personally find spot on: You Know What I Mean is another one and I am sure that going through his songbook, I would find other examples.


Yeah, I guess having read that thread on Duke might have shed some more light for you thoughts on that. I did read and understand your point on breakup songs.

on Nov 9th, 2017, 06:44am, Fabrizio wrote:
I think, I hope actually, there is no need to argue over the fact that losing somebody to death is not tantamount to breaking up with someone, divorcing, separating whatever, particularly when that loss is caused by an accident and particularly when it is about a child, a son.
I am told death is quite final, problems of the heart not so much. It is really not the same kind of loss, isn't it?


No there is no need to argue death vs breakup/divorce. Two totally different, but difficult situations.

on Nov 9th, 2017, 06:44am, Fabrizio wrote:
I think this is the main misunderstanding throughout this thread: the inability to acknowledge the difference between an unfortunate, sad situation and a real tragedy and the urge some fans feel to run in defense of their artist.


Hmm. I hope this comment is not directed at me because if it is, that in itself is a misunderstanding. I have been through enough deaths in the family to know the difference between and unfortunate event and a tragedy. As for running to the defense of Phil, it may seem that way to some, but I'm just trying to get a better understanding your opinion here, whether I agree with it or not.

on Nov 9th, 2017, 06:44am, Fabrizio wrote:
Again, I have to be redundant but the point seems to be lost on someone: If you can mistake a song about the death of child for yet another generic love song and virtually everybody did, something is not quite right.


This is one thing you have convinced me of in this whole thread. It makes perfect sense. If you are trying to write what seems a straight forward song about "A" and most people interpret it's really about "B", maybe the writer wasn't clear enough. Spot on!
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« Reply #40 on: Nov 9th, 2017, 07:42am »

Sorry to butt in, but my main problem with this song is that Phil essentially deals in clichés. I mean that line the recurs and recurs throughout the song "my heart is broken in pieces", how many times have we heard that in a song? I would say Eric would have suffered more than a broken heart.
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« Reply #41 on: Nov 9th, 2017, 07:44am »

Interesting thing, I think the next song on the album, Fading Lights, does a much better job of tackling the subjects of loss (and regret for that matter). The only thing is, I believe the lyrics were written by Tony. So Phil doesn't get credit for that one. It will always be known as Genesis' "swan song" for me.
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« Reply #42 on: Nov 9th, 2017, 07:57am »

on Nov 9th, 2017, 07:44am, HomeByTheSea wrote:
Interesting thing, I think the next song on the album, Fading Lights, does a much better job of tackling the subjects of loss (and regret for that matter). The only thing is, I believe the lyrics were written by Tony. So Phil doesn't get credit for that one. It will always be known as Genesis' "swan song" for me.

I completely agree with that.
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« Reply #43 on: Nov 9th, 2017, 07:59am »

on Nov 9th, 2017, 07:42am, WutheringNights76 wrote:
Sorry to butt in, but my main problem with this song is that Phil essentially deals in clichés. I mean that line the recurs and recurs throughout the song "my heart is broken in pieces", how many times have we heard that in a song? I would say Eric would have suffered more than a broken heart.

He does deal in clichés and it would be the case even for a love song. Go figure.
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« Reply #44 on: Nov 9th, 2017, 08:03am »

on Nov 9th, 2017, 07:37am, HomeByTheSea wrote:
Hmm. I hope this comment is not directed at me because if it is, that in itself is a misunderstanding. I have been through enough deaths in the family to know the difference between and unfortunate event and a tragedy. As for running to the defense of Phil, it may seem that way to some, but I'm just trying to get a better understanding your opinion here, whether I agree with it or not.




I confess for a moment I wasn't sure, since you brought up PDA as an example of Phil knowing about loss and writing about it in a poignant, deep way. I am happy though it isn't so and case closed, as far as I am concerned. I meant no disrespect and I appreciate you are trying to understand my point of view.
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