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question Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #45 on: Aug 28th, 2017, 8:21pm »

Great essay, Schrottrocker! The Lamb isn't my favorite, but I'm still quite fond of it. Having discovered it as a moody, self-absorbed teenager, I rather enjoyed the dark, gloomy atmosphere of the songs. As an adult, I can see some of your criticisms aren't without merit, particularly the relative absence of Steve. I think a bit more edgy guitar and yes, some better-developed songs might have propelled this album into masterpiece territory for me. As it stands, I like it a great deal and still revisit it, probably once per year on average. That's impressive for a recording that I first heard nearly 35 years ago!

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xx Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #46 on: Aug 29th, 2017, 04:37am »

on Aug 28th, 2017, 3:54pm, Schrottrocker wrote:
That's interesting. Are you a Gabriel fan, meaning do you enjoy his solo albums? I'm asking because I find of all Genesis albums The Lamb comes closest to Gabriel solo. The Chamber of 32 Doors could have been on any Gabriel album.
Speaking for me, I always had high respect for Gabriel's solo music for its artistic merit but I can't get into it, it doesn't give me much. Whilst I love Hackett's first couple albums, most of Phillips' and Banks' albums plus Rutherford's Smallcreep's Day. Trick, Wind and Three all are pretty similar to these, or at least they will share the same fans.


Yes, I am a PG fan, especially of 3, 4 and Up. I don't think The Lamb sounds much like PG's solo work but would tentatively agree it comes closest to it, and I can see what you mean about Chamber, which could be off either of his first 2 albums.

I think you and I are on opposite sides of the "Genesis fan divide" - well, there has always been a dividing line - that occasionally occurs. All the things you list above are the aspects of Genesis work, band or solo, that I like the least. Even down to the detail that Hackett's first two are of very little interest to me. A Tower is the only one on Acolyte I like and I don't really much like anything on Please (I thought his work massively improved after that). Just the odd rare bit of TB's albums have any appeal, and practically nothing of MR's, though I've found more to consistently like in AP's work. I agree all those will probably have a consistent fan base.

I get what you mean about respecting/admiring but not getting into PG's work - there are certain highly regarded artists I feel the same about, such as Bob Dylan and Kate Bush.
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xx Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #47 on: Aug 29th, 2017, 10:45am »

on Aug 28th, 2017, 3:54pm, Schrottrocker wrote:
I find of all Genesis albums The Lamb comes closest to Gabriel solo. The Chamber of 32 Doors could have been on any Gabriel album.

Sorry but I am really having a hard time agreeing with this.
I guess the argument could be made for his first 2 solo albums, I can hardly imagine Chamber on any other album from PG3 onward but even on those 2 first albums, when he was trying to find himself as a songwriter, he deliberately wanted to break away from Genesis musically , in fact, I believe this was the only thing that was clear in his mind at the time. Also, I think you are forgetting something very important about the Lamb: yes, the lyrics are all Peter's and yes, he penned a couple of songs on his own and contributed to some others but the biggest bulk of the music on that album is either a band's effort or stems from other contributors within the band. This is well documented, so there is no way it can sound as a Peter's solo album.
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xx Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #48 on: Aug 29th, 2017, 2:14pm »

on Aug 29th, 2017, 10:45am, Fabrizio wrote:
Sorry but I am really having a hard time agreeing with this.
I guess the argument could be made for his first 2 solo albums, I can hardly imagine Chamber on any other album from PG3 onward but even on those 2 first albums, when he was trying to find himself as a songwriter, he deliberately wanted to break away from Genesis musically , in fact, I believe this was the only thing that was clear in his mind at the time. Also, I think you are forgetting something very important about the Lamb: yes, the lyrics are all Peter's and yes, he penned a couple of songs on his own and contributed to some others but the biggest bulk of the music on that album is either a band's effort or stems from other contributors within the band. This is well documented, so there is no way it can sound as a Peter's solo album.


He didn't say that, though. He said that for him, it comes closest to sounding like PG solo, not that it does sound like PG solo. Schrottrocker will speak for himself but I'm sure he's not forgetting the music is band-composed, although that said, we know the title track is Banks/Gabriel, Fly On A Windshield and Hairless Heart mainly Hackett, Carpet Crawlers mainly PG, Lilywhite Lilith mainly PC, The Lamia mainly Banks. I'm sure others are primarily one or two band members with finessing by the others. But anyway, sorry for the digression.
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xx Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #49 on: Aug 29th, 2017, 2:29pm »

on Aug 29th, 2017, 2:14pm, Backdrifter wrote:
He didn't say that, though. He said that for him, it comes closest to sounding like PG solo, not that it does sound like PG solo. Schrottrocker will speak for himself but I'm sure he's not forgetting the music is band-composed, although that said, we know the title track is Banks/Gabriel, Fly On A Windshield and Hairless Heart mainly Hackett, Carpet Crawlers mainly PG, Lilywhite Lilith mainly PC, The Lamia mainly Banks. I'm sure others are primarily one or two band members with finessing by the others. But anyway, sorry for the digression.

No problem with the digression and I think I read him fine. I simply don't agree, to my ears it doesn't come the closest to sound like PG's solo work. As for Chamber, I can only imagine it on the first two albums. Not on any PG albums.
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question Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #50 on: Aug 29th, 2017, 2:36pm »



Well, this was interesting and thanks for taking the time. Something I would like to address right away, I donít feel that you or anybody else should be worried about expressing opinions, as long as they are expressed in a respectful manner. Yes, the Lamb is quite revered but so what? People forget this is a Forum and if you are here and plan on sticking around you canít be too thin-skinned. I speak for myself when I say that your opinion of the Lamb not only doesnít offend me but most of all it doesnít affect my appreciation of the album. Based on my frequentation of this forum and others in the past, however, I know I speak for others when I say that Gabriel era fans in general are quite unaffected when somebody expresses dislike towards this music. The most you can get in response is the dismissive, patronizing notion that you simply donít get it but thatís about it. Philís fans on the other hand, display, always generally speaking, a far more acute sensitivity when they perceive that the later era is under attack, pretty much always in their opinion. For some reason they take it quite personal. That said and in the full respect of your opinion there are a couple of things that strikes me as contradictory or even inaccurate:
I can understand for instance not liking Peterís voice, voices are like colors, we all have our favorite one and even so, we can sometimes like the voices but not the singing or vice-versa, what I cannot understand and IMO it is simply not true is saying Peterís voice was different on the Lamb than from SEBTP. There is of course an evolution, this is true for each member, on each album but there isnít anything as radical to prompt somebody to suddenly say he sings differently or he is another kind of singer. He didnít change his style or the coloring of his voice, if anything and that goes for the others too, he got better, perhaps not as good as on his solo albums but the progress from the previous albums is evident. Feel free not to like it anyway of course but perhaps thereís another reason.
We are talking about a double album, songs are generally reprised on double albums, particularly concept albums. that evidently bothers you but when you say they lack substance, I find it overly harsh. We all like Los Endos I assume, a good argument for those who donít, would be they reprised and patched together different songs. How lazy of them!
You say you miss the variety of songs of other albums, thatís a bit strange since there is a much wider spectrum on this album, granted, they might be songs you donít care for but criticizing the lack of variety seems inaccurate imo. No variety from Hairless heart to COT? From Anyway to Fly on a Windshield? The Grand Parade and the Lamia?
ATOTT, my favorite album, certainly doesnít display the same variety, in fact, I guess, a good argument for those who dislike it might be, it is too homogenous. Again, you simply donít like it which is great it but I dare you to find another Genesis album with the same variety.
There are 2-3 songs you find depressingÖ..Not much to say about that, as far as we are clear that itís quite the personal assessment or mood. You also seem to miss the complexity of other songs on other albums but that, excuse me, makes really little sense. They were never, nor they will ever be, as complex in terms of writing, arrangements, playing and lyrics. Hence the trouble many people have getting into this album. Instrumentally they were on fireÖ.And complex. Phil regards it as one of his peaks and not that it matters but I agree. If the drummer is on fire, trust me, the bassist cannot lag behind. Tony was edger than ever and more then he will ever get to be imo and Steve was as usually a bit stifled but everything he does is a thing of beauty. Granted, there are shorter songs but I donít see how extending and expanding stuff like Anyway or The Lamia would make them any better or more likeable.
Peter, well, you donít seem to care much for Peter, his songwriting or his singing on this album, in fact you seem to prefer live versions by Phil and thatís fine but again, when you criticize the album: its depressive mood, the lack of variety, substance and complexity, please never forget that the band; Tony, Mike, Phil and Steve are responsible for 90% of the music on the album, even though clearly Peter was pushing for a rougher edge which doesnít seem to be your cup of tea. I heard many criticisms throughout the years over the Lamb, self-indulgence being the most recurrent one but it is the first time I hear the album being accused of lacking substance complexity and variety and respectfullyÖit really doesnít apply.
Finally, nothing I could say can make you like the Lamb and it is really not my aspiration, the album simply doesnít resonate with you also nothing wrong with that, thereís very little one can say and when reading that something like the Lamia is Ďdepressingí or something like Fly on a windshield, in my opinion one of Genesisí finest and most powerful moments is just ĎOKí, it is what it is but substantiating likes and dislikes is always tricky and a slippery slope, it leads us sometimes to fall into contradictions and personally I think you did just that. Perhaps, as you said, there is so much wrong about this album, the same though can be said about any other Genesis albums, even members have said so repeatedly, it comes down to what we like I guess and when that happens we are willing to condone, overlook and be indulgent.
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question Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #51 on: Aug 29th, 2017, 7:17pm »

Whoa, what have I done! cheesy Ok, let me catch up on all that.

- For the apologizing: well yea, maybe I have too much conscience... I just feel a little heretic for slaughtering a holy cow I guess. I remember how long ago when I was active on StudiVZ - a now defunct German online social network - I was in a Genesis fan group and when I said I don't like The Lamb too much some users basically jumped at my face and declared me a Collins fan who doesn't get the artistic depth of Gabriel Genesis etc.... you get the picture. It helped a lot when I pointed out Selling England is my top favourite album, this apparently gave me offically permission to utter critical words about The Lamb. grin

- Which Genesis album do you think comes closest to solo Gabriel? I don't think any does because he took an entirely different musical path as a solo artist - but if any album comes closest then The Lamb. But actually it is really just The Chamber of 32 Doors that always reminds me on his solo stuff; that said I am not too familiar with his solo records, I listened through his first three albums though and yes, the third one is by any means the one that finally set his musical course. I am well aware the music on The Lamb was mainly written by the other four due to the work process on that album. Still, Chamber was written by Gabriel with only little additions by Hackett if I'm not mistaken?

- About Peter's voice: it is the way he employed his voice. I love his voice on Selling England; on The Lamb he used his voice a lot of times in a way it doesn't appeal to me at all. The song I like his singing least is Back in NYC, closely followed by the title song, Grand Parade and Cuckoo Cocoon. I have no problem with his singing on Carpet Crawlers, Anyway, Slippermen, In The Rapids... After The Lamb, there's these bootlegs with his very first demos, on those his voice sounds completely like back on Selling England, I really like it there. On his 2nd solo album I don't like it at all. It's a matter of taste.

- I didn't mean to criticize repeating motifs in different songs. Actually that was something I always enjoyed. Genesis did this within Supper's Ready, they reprised Moonlit Knight in Aisle of Plenty, they used reprising motifs throughout Trick, Wind and Duke, Steve did it on VOTA, PDT, Spectral Mornings and Defector, Ant on Geese and WATE, Mike on Smallcreep and Tony on ACF. No problem with that.

What I was trying to say with "lacking variety and substance" is a) most of the songs are kept a lot more simple in themselves compared to what they packed into, say, Firth of Fifth or Moonlit Knight; b) in musical terms the songwriting is less complex for their standards at the time. Actually that last point is something that bothered me more back when I was 14 than it does today. As a teen, I was waiting for all those chord sequence that take you through all keys, and for all those odd-time signatures... The Lamb is a little sub-standard in this respect for what Genesis used to do at the time, but really, today I learned to appreciate simpler songs too. I'm ok now with In The Cage switching to 4/4 for the synth solo instead of 7/8 or 13/8 wink

I do agree though that the songs are nothing "simple" in any way regarding the arrangements. In fact, it's true that The Lamb is one of the most complex albums in terms of song arrangements, performance and production. Still, for a lot of the songwriting, it sounds to me as if they were struggling to get out what used to come so easy to them and frankly, I can imagine them pretty well, stuck in Headly Grange with rats around them, Peter wanting to leave, time running out, everybody losing nerves, the mood getting more and more strained, how all this would severely affect their creative output - it makes a lot of sense the album turned out unbalanced and frustrated sounding except for a few songs which I guess must have been the first they came up with when they were still being excited about making a new album. Slippermen and In The Cage probably?

- Bottom line, yes, the album does not just not resonate with me, it resonates in the wrong way because listening to it is the opposite of enjoying. Maybe there's no ultimate ground why this is so, it's just what it is. While Trespass, Nursery Cryme, Foxtrot, Selling England, Trick and Wind all have that special something that lifts me up into higher spheres, they give me a satisfaction on a level no other music could, listening to those albums has a nearly spiritual feeling... and The Lamb does the opposite, it brings me down.
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question Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #52 on: Aug 30th, 2017, 06:45am »

The Lamb is a very grotesque album - human production lines, cherry-red organs being taken to with a razor blade, prickly porcupines, slippermen, castrations etc etc. It's quite hard to take in. Having said that, I'm a big fan of the album; I think it works well. The music is very different as well - not many twinkly 12-strings, flutes etc. I can see how it would put some off. Though I like it a lot, I don't think it's at "holy cow" status - to me it seems controversial still. It's got some beautiful moments, sure: Cuckoo Cocoon, The Carpet Crawl, In the Rapids...it's just a little bit nightmarish!
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xx Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #53 on: Aug 30th, 2017, 07:58am »

on Aug 29th, 2017, 7:17pm, Schrottrocker wrote:
Whoa, what have I done! cheesy Ok, let me catch up on all that.

- For the apologizing: well yea, maybe I have too much conscience... I just feel a little heretic for slaughtering a holy cow I guess. I remember how long ago when I was active on StudiVZ - a now defunct German online social network - I was in a Genesis fan group and when I said I don't like The Lamb too much some users basically jumped at my face and declared me a Collins fan who doesn't get the artistic depth of Gabriel Genesis etc.... you get the picture. It helped a lot when I pointed out Selling England is my top favourite album, this apparently gave me offically permission to utter critical words about The Lamb. grin

- Which Genesis album do you think comes closest to solo Gabriel? I don't think any does because he took an entirely different musical path as a solo artist - but if any album comes closest then The Lamb. But actually it is really just The Chamber of 32 Doors that always reminds me on his solo stuff; that said I am not too familiar with his solo records, I listened through his first three albums though and yes, the third one is by any means the one that finally set his musical course. I am well aware the music on The Lamb was mainly written by the other four due to the work process on that album. Still, Chamber was written by Gabriel with only little additions by Hackett if I'm not mistaken?

- About Peter's voice: it is the way he employed his voice. I love his voice on Selling England; on The Lamb he used his voice a lot of times in a way it doesn't appeal to me at all. The song I like his singing least is Back in NYC, closely followed by the title song, Grand Parade and Cuckoo Cocoon. I have no problem with his singing on Carpet Crawlers, Anyway, Slippermen, In The Rapids... After The Lamb, there's these bootlegs with his very first demos, on those his voice sounds completely like back on Selling England, I really like it there. On his 2nd solo album I don't like it at all. It's a matter of taste.

- I didn't mean to criticize repeating motifs in different songs. Actually that was something I always enjoyed. Genesis did this within Supper's Ready, they reprised Moonlit Knight in Aisle of Plenty, they used reprising motifs throughout Trick, Wind and Duke, Steve did it on VOTA, PDT, Spectral Mornings and Defector, Ant on Geese and WATE, Mike on Smallcreep and Tony on ACF. No problem with that.

What I was trying to say with "lacking variety and substance" is a) most of the songs are kept a lot more simple in themselves compared to what they packed into, say, Firth of Fifth or Moonlit Knight; b) in musical terms the songwriting is less complex for their standards at the time. Actually that last point is something that bothered me more back when I was 14 than it does today. As a teen, I was waiting for all those chord sequence that take you through all keys, and for all those odd-time signatures... The Lamb is a little sub-standard in this respect for what Genesis used to do at the time, but really, today I learned to appreciate simpler songs too. I'm ok now with In The Cage switching to 4/4 for the synth solo instead of 7/8 or 13/8 wink

I do agree though that the songs are nothing "simple" in any way regarding the arrangements. In fact, it's true that The Lamb is one of the most complex albums in terms of song arrangements, performance and production. Still, for a lot of the songwriting, it sounds to me as if they were struggling to get out what used to come so easy to them and frankly, I can imagine them pretty well, stuck in Headly Grange with rats around them, Peter wanting to leave, time running out, everybody losing nerves, the mood getting more and more strained, how all this would severely affect their creative output - it makes a lot of sense the album turned out unbalanced and frustrated sounding except for a few songs which I guess must have been the first they came up with when they were still being excited about making a new album. Slippermen and In The Cage probably?

- Bottom line, yes, the album does not just not resonate with me, it resonates in the wrong way because listening to it is the opposite of enjoying. Maybe there's no ultimate ground why this is so, it's just what it is. While Trespass, Nursery Cryme, Foxtrot, Selling England, Trick and Wind all have that special something that lifts me up into higher spheres, they give me a satisfaction on a level no other music could, listening to those albums has a nearly spiritual feeling... and The Lamb does the opposite, it brings me down.

I wouldnít overly worry if I were you; the ĎHoly Cowí is alive and kicking. You havenít slaughtered anything; it will die eventually, in time, of natural causes ;-)
I guess there is no longer any need to elaborate over the similarity between the Lamb and PGís solo stuff, you said it yourself, there isnít any and by your own admission, you are not too familiar with Peterís work. I will give you this though: the Lamb has an edge successive G-albums donít have and that can be probably be chalked up to Peter. That migh perhaps be reason why the album puts you off.
About Peterís voice, itís not the fact that it doesnít appeal to you that puzzles or bothers me, that is for you to decide, itís the fact that you claim he sings differently and while it is true that the wide range of songs on the album require different interpretations, much as he did on Battle of Epping Forest for instance, there isnít really any major difference in his key, range, tone and coloring. BINYC is an angry song, he delivers it that way. Everybody can hear that he starts singing differently on his solo albums, when he begins to be fully in control of his material and I might add, he lowers the key. Everybody can say for instance that Phil, started singing differently on Duke to then, fully blossom as a vocalist on Abacab, itís there for everybody to hear. Peter on the Lamb? Not so much. Itís like saying you like the brunette more than the blonde because the brunette is tallerÖ.Except, she isnít. You can still like the brunette better of course but perhaps height isnít the reason. ;-)
Complexity: I think itís funny that an album that has been often been Ďaccusedí of being too, self-indulgent. Over ambitious, complex and even intricate is being now disregarded, by a Genesis fan of all fans, for not being as complex as other Genesis records. In reality, on this album, much as on any other Genesis album of your fancy, there is a blend of songs ranging from complex to apparently simple. Donít you have stuff like More Fool me, I know what I like and After the ordeal on SEBTP, an album which you seem to like, to balance the more complex and long material? Itís not different on the Lamb. The same goes by the way for any G album of virtually any era, do you always have complexity on ATOTT or W&W? Or even on Foxtrot and NC? I doubt that. Bottom line, as you confirm, the album doesnít resonate with you and drags you down and there is absolutely nothing to be said about that, it is when you try to explain why that, forgive me, your claims seem a bit inaccurate and contradictory to me.
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question Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #54 on: Aug 31st, 2017, 07:06am »

I guess the discussion between you and me has run its course, Fabrizio, there's not much to add.

I still beg to disagree with a few things:

Peter's voice does sound different, he varied his voice a good deal and I just don't like the way he sang Back in NYC. Phil stayed more consistent with his voice, at least within a time frame, and I prefer his version of The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway. Back in NYC I still don't like too much even with Phil's voice.

After The Ordeal has quite complex chords in the first half! Nothing simple there.
And for the musical complexity in general: there were always more simpler and more complex songs on Genesis albums, I just found The Lamb on the simpler side for the standards Genesis had set on the surrounding albums at that time - and I found that when I was 14 years old. I see this differently today. Today I notice a lot more details in all Genesis songs and complexity or simplicity is certainly the least thing which bothers me today about The Lamb. Back when I was a teenager I just found there were way too many songs in 4/4. Maybe I put too much stress on this aspect, there's other things that weigh in a lot more why I don't enjoy The Lamb.
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xx Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #55 on: Aug 31st, 2017, 08:40am »

on Aug 31st, 2017, 07:06am, Schrottrocker wrote:
I guess the discussion between you and me has run its course, Fabrizio, there's not much to add.

I still beg to disagree with a few things:

Peter's voice does sound different, he varied his voice a good deal and I just don't like the way he sang Back in NYC. Phil stayed more consistent with his voice, at least within a time frame, and I prefer his version of The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway. Back in NYC I still don't like too much even with Phil's voice.

After The Ordeal has quite complex chords in the first half! Nothing simple there.
And for the musical complexity in general: there were always more simpler and more complex songs on Genesis albums, I just found The Lamb on the simpler side for the standards Genesis had set on the surrounding albums at that time - and I found that when I was 14 years old. I see this differently today. Today I notice a lot more details in all Genesis songs and complexity or simplicity is certainly the least thing which bothers me today about The Lamb. Back when I was a teenager I just found there were way too many songs in 4/4. Maybe I put too much stress on this aspect, there's other things that weigh in a lot more why I don't enjoy The Lamb.

We are not trying to agree here, or convince one another, much less to argue. I would be the first to admit that the Lamb is one off in their discography, even in the Gabriel era and I am not the least bothered by people who don't appreciate it, I am however, intrested in the reasons why. I guess if we weren't we wouldn't be debating in a forum, would we?
It is when you say things like; Phil stayed more consistent with his voice, when I truly cannot think of a singer who has changed so radically and had such an evolution in his career or that the Lamb had too many simple songs for the Genesis canon, whereas ATO is complex......
chttps://www.e-chords.com/tabs/genesis/after-the-ordeal
Are you sure?
Or Peter changed his singing on a Lamb, that I cannot help thinking you hear what you choose to hear, then again, I guess we all do.
Some people told me that The Lamb lacks that romanticism which was part of Genesis on previous records and those to come for that matter, for that reason they have a hard time getting into it. It's no longer romantic, not particularly British, gone are tha pastoral themes and settings, it's about a Puertorican juvenile criminal and the music reflects that. That, is something that seems accurate to me and I can understand why some people are not ready to get on board, it is a radical departure and one that cannot be denied. What you say, can imo be disproved but it doesn't mean you have to like the record anyway. wink
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question Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #56 on: Aug 31st, 2017, 10:44am »

I guess I did not make myself clear enough: I never tried to refer how much Peter's and Phil's voices changed over their career - I referred to how much their voices varied within a short time frame, meaning within one or two albums. Compare Peter's singing on The Cinema Show and Cuckoo Cocoon: I can hear a very noticeable difference in the sound he gave his singing voice. If you can't hear it, I can't help you, I can hear it very clearly. rolleyes

So After The Ordeal is not complex? In my book these chord changes are definitely beyond the norm of rock and pop, there's a couple very surprising moves that are only held together by the melody. Your sheet misses the bass notes unfortunately and I disagree on a few chords - that part which is credited as "parte b" in the sheet keeps first alternating between C and B/C (the second character is the bass note), at that point we have a minor as the basic key and are now in the parallel major key on C, the listener is tricked into believing we are going to stay in this harmonic space - then all of a sudden we jump to A/C# (with a D# as a transit note in the melody!), B/D#, G#/F#, C#m/E, B/D# to A/E - then the bass note will stay on E while the chords alternate between A and Ej7 (not B as given in your sheet). That way from C major to E major is quite radical. But we're not done yet: we finally reach A and B/A alternating, then suddenly off to C#, G, B, E, then over Dm and E back to A minor! Some real unexpected jumps there and so Hackett.
Now which songs exactly off The Lamb have to offer comparable stuff? I'd say The Lamia, Cuckoo Cocoon, and 'it' in the first place, maybe parts of The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway, In The Cage and Slippermen, but then it gets thin... Regarding chord changes there's not that much going on. Nothing in the likes of Firth of Fifth, Cinema Show, Epping Forest and Moonlit Knight.
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xx Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #57 on: Aug 31st, 2017, 11:10am »

on Aug 31st, 2017, 10:44am, Schrottrocker wrote:
I guess I did not make myself clear enough: I never tried to refer how much Peter's and Phil's voices changed over their career - I referred to how much their voices varied within a short time frame, meaning within one or two albums. Compare Peter's singing on The Cinema Show and Cuckoo Cocoon: I can hear a very noticeable difference in the sound he gave his singing voice. If you can't hear it, I can't help you, I can hear it very clearly. rolleyes

So After The Ordeal is not complex? In my book these chord changes are definitely beyond the norm of rock and pop, there's a couple very surprising moves that are only held together by the melody. Your sheet misses the bass notes unfortunately and I disagree on a few chords - that part which is credited as "parte b" in the sheet keeps first alternating between C and B/C (the second character is the bass note), at that point we have a minor as the basic key and are now in the parallel major key on C, the listener is tricked into believing we are going to stay in this harmonic space - then all of a sudden we jump to A/C# (with a D# as a transit note in the melody!), B/D#, G#/F#, C#m/E, B/D# to A/E - then the bass note will stay on E while the chords alternate between A and Ej7 (not B as given in your sheet). That way from C major to E major is quite radical. But we're not done yet: we finally reach A and B/A alternating, then suddenly off to C#, G, B, E, then over Dm and E back to A minor! Some real unexpected jumps there and so Hackett.
Now which songs exactly off The Lamb have to offer comparable stuff? I'd say The Lamia, Cuckoo Cocoon, and 'it' in the first place, maybe parts of The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway, In The Cage and Slippermen, but then it gets thin... Regarding chord changes there's not that much going on. Nothing in the likes of Firth of Fifth, Cinema Show, Epping Forest and Moonlit Knight.


If the way he sings CC for you is indicative of a change in style, I guess you win, he definetely changed his style radically on this album, a whole another singer, much like listeining to Phil singing Afterglow on SO and then on 3SL..... rolleyes Or perhaps Cinema show and CC are two, extremely different songs that require being delivered differently....Just saying. Phil went from using a pure almost falsetto voice, meaning a 'head-voice' to using his throat and lungs a lot more, he basically became another singer within a few records and tours, to then get to a nasal tone. Peter underwent none of those changes. If you don't hear it.....
I am not saying tha ATO is typical pop and simple but it is Genesis in general and Hackett in particular, I can play those chords, in the sense that I can replicate them, not come up with that sequence, let's be clear here and trust me I am not particularly good on the guitar, I do however, know a couple of things about singing.
In the end what can I say? The Lamb is depressive, overly simple for Genesis and Peter sings differently; all there to hear and all valid reasons not to like the album and BTW and this must be absolutely clear: one doesn't need a reason to like or dislike something, personally I think sometimes it's preferable. wink
« Last Edit: Aug 31st, 2017, 11:24am by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

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question Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #58 on: Aug 31st, 2017, 11:17am »

i don't dislike 'the lamb', but i must confess that it's the genesis album whose track list is hardest for me to remember, no matter how many times i've listened to it. specially the second disc.
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xx Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #59 on: Aug 31st, 2017, 12:42pm »

on Aug 31st, 2017, 11:17am, Kerry95 wrote:
i don't dislike 'the lamb', but i must confess that it's the genesis album whose track list is hardest for me to remember, no matter how many times i've listened to it. specially the second disc.

Do you think it's the sheer number of songs or the fact that you don't find them memorable?
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