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 veryhotthread  Author  Topic: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the album?  (Read 3475 times)
FeelItComing
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xx Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #30 on: Jun 1st, 2017, 6:23pm »

on May 30th, 2017, 8:05pm, WutheringNights76 wrote:
Is there anyone who would have preferred to see the concept based around 'The Little Prince'? (The only other "seriously considered" idea)


No. I read it at school when I was studying French and even in the original language I didn't like it. I like Lamb as it is weird though it may be.
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question Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #31 on: Jun 2nd, 2017, 03:26am »

Like a lot of people here-including Tony. I think the story is superfluous. I don't mind most of the lyrics and pretty much all of the music.

I can't believe I find myself agreeing with Tony Banks!
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xx Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #32 on: Jun 2nd, 2017, 07:13am »

on Jun 1st, 2017, 6:23pm, FeelItComing wrote:
No. I read it at school when I was studying French and even in the original language I didn't like it. I like Lamb as it is weird though it may be.


Apart from the merits of the two stories, I think discarding the Little Prince, again clearly highlights the importance of Peter within Genesis.
I've always said for instance that Trick is my favorite album and the 4-man era produced imo nothing but brilliance but there was a strong risk, as a band to become too monodimensional, Tony had too tight a grip on songwriting and sound.
Some of the comments made by Mike on W&W find me in agreement. I love the album but things were becoming a bit formulaic, comfortable and....Well, bland. Mike said femenine actually.
It's clear to me we are not talking about AC/DC, still I believe the thought of a record based on the Little Prince is not something a rock band should seriously entertain.
Peter wanted something rougher, edgier: he was the Knife on the cover of Trespass, the gruesome imagineries in the Musical Box, the quirkiness, the urge to move forward and leave the comfort zone. Tony, as fantastic a songwriter as he is, would have probaby continued on the same course and things tend to stagnate artistically after a while.
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xx Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #33 on: Jun 2nd, 2017, 6:46pm »

on Jun 2nd, 2017, 07:13am, Fabrizio wrote:
Apart from the merits of the two stories, I think discarding the Little Prince, again clearly highlights the importance of Peter within Genesis.
I've always said for instance that Trick is my favorite album and the 4-man era produced imo nothing but brilliance but there was a strong risk, as a band to become too monodimensional, Tony had too tight a grip on songwriting and sound.
Some of the comments made by Mike on W&W find me in agreement. I love the album but things were becoming a bit formulaic, comfortable and....Well, bland. Mike said femenine actually.
It's clear to me we are not talking about AC/DC, still I believe the thought of a record based on the Little Prince is not something a rock band should seriously entertain.
Peter wanted something rougher, edgier: he was the Knife on the cover of Trespass, the gruesome imagineries in the Musical Box, the quirkiness, the urge to move forward and leave the comfort zone. Tony, as fantastic a songwriter as he is, would have probaby continued on the same course and things tend to stagnate artistically after a while.


You've just summed up perfectly why I love Lamb. Ironic that Peter then left. If the others had been a bit more flexible who knows what could have occurred; and I say this as someone who is a Collins era person. There is something almost punk or avant garde about Lamb (I also feel that way about Abacab, however).
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xx Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #34 on: Jun 3rd, 2017, 07:55am »

on Jun 2nd, 2017, 6:46pm, FeelItComing wrote:
Ironic that Peter then left. If the others had been a bit more flexible who knows what could have occurred.
There is something almost punk or avant garde about Lamb (I also feel that way about Abacab, however).

I don't think there was any particular lack of flexibility involved, I believe they grew up artistically and as a result they grew apart. Peter's claim to be in charge of all the lyrics was imo legitimate but so was Tony's and Mike's reluctance in relinquishing that area. Bands are formed by accidents and members grow apart, if you think about it Tony and Peter are now, musically speaking worlds apart, it simply had to happen. As for the rest, it is true that the rest of the band showed an appalling lack of empathy for what Peter was going through at the time with his family, they alll regret that and said so many times, it is also true that Peter's wish to take an absence of leave from the band to work as an 'idea person' with William Friedkin was imo ridicolous and I personally think the others were right to be inflexible and resent it. As for Abacab, I am sorry but personally I don't see any parallel with the Lamb.
« Last Edit: Jun 3rd, 2017, 09:29am by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

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question Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #35 on: Jun 3rd, 2017, 09:41am »

I did a quick read-up about the book "The Little Prince" on Wikipedia. While the story doesn't particularly appeal to me, I can see how someone could have the idea to base a concept album on it, and what aspects individual songs could be based on. I just can't see it as a Genesis concept album, particularly from the Gabriel era.
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xx Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #36 on: Jun 3rd, 2017, 6:25pm »

on Jun 3rd, 2017, 07:55am, Fabrizio wrote:
I don't think there was any particular lack of flexibility involved, I believe they grew up artistically and as a result they grew apart. Peter's claim to be in charge of all the lyrics was imo legitimate but so was Tony's and Mike's reluctance in relinquishing that area. Bands are formed by accidents and members grow apart, if you think about it Tony and Peter are now, musically speaking worlds apart, it simply had to happen. As for the rest, it is true that the rest of the band showed an appalling lack of empathy for what Peter was going through at the time with his family, they alll regret that and said so many times, it is also true that Peter's wish to take an absence of leave from the band to work as an 'idea person' with William Friedkin was imo ridicolous and I personally think the others were right to be inflexible and resent it. As for Abacab, I am sorry but personally I don't see any parallel with the Lamb.


No, there is no parallel between Lamb & Abacab. I just stated that I find it somewhat avant garde the way I think Lamb is - this is only my opinion.
« Last Edit: Jun 3rd, 2017, 6:25pm by FeelItComing » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #37 on: Jun 4th, 2017, 11:08am »

on Jun 3rd, 2017, 6:25pm, FeelItComing wrote:
I just stated that I find it somewhat avant garde the way I think Lamb is - this is only my opinion.


No problem with that but without debating the merits of the material and whether I like it or less, I personally fail to hear the avant-garde in Abacab.
The concept, the idea, the execution are completely different, so are the eras.
The Lamb is an album of a band whose members are in their mid-20s, they have been progressing with each album and they are reallly trying to push the envelope with this one, I can really see why some people would think it is a bit pretentious but it is at least very ambitious, I guess it was at the height of the prog rock era and the right moment to try a stunt like that.
Abacab is an album of a band in theirs 30s with a 10 years career behind them, at a time in which music is increasingly becoming an industry and they decided to change radically course, rightly so imo, basically by simplifying everything, lyrically and musically: I guess you can call Abacab risky, for Genesis, but imo hardly ambitious or pretentious, there is certainly an element of novelty as far as the Genesis canon is concerned, much less so if you consider the music landscape at that moment.
« Last Edit: Jun 4th, 2017, 4:39pm by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #38 on: Jun 6th, 2017, 04:51am »

on Jun 4th, 2017, 11:08am, Fabrizio wrote:
Abacab is an album of a band in theirs 30s with a 10 years career behind them, at a time in which music is increasingly becoming an industry and they decided to change radically course, rightly so imo, basically by simplifying everything, lyrically and musically:


Although I do agree that Abacab had significant change in sound from that which preceded it, I would say that they began simplifying their sound with ...And Then There Were Three. The songs were shortened and followed common verse/chorus structures. Basically, they began to follow mainstream formulas in some ways.
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xx Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #39 on: Jun 6th, 2017, 06:25am »

on Jun 6th, 2017, 04:51am, rael1974 wrote:
Although I do agree that Abacab had significant change in sound from that which preceded it, I would say that they began simplifying their sound with ...And Then There Were Three. The songs were shortened and followed common verse/chorus structures. Basically, they began to follow mainstream formulas in some ways.

I agree but with some differences: on ATTW3 they are basically doing the same, with the same spirit and formulas just editing it. Case in point Undertow or even Heathaze to some extent; no intros, no instrumental bridge, no outros but the main body is basically the same.
On Abacab, apart from a couple of exceptions they steer away from certain familiar formulas not only the length of the songs. Two imo differences also: one of the redeeming qualities of Abacab for me is the energy, regardless of what I may think of the songs you can hear the band is energized and excited, these elements are missing on ATTW imo and finally Phil; it's like he is two different singers and it makes a huge difference.
« Last Edit: Jun 6th, 2017, 06:28am by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

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question Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #40 on: Aug 27th, 2017, 3:15pm »

I forgot about this thread in the meantime but I will keep my promise and try to explain why I'm a Lamb hater.

First, a little note: I am well aware this album is held in high regard among many many Genesis fans, I am also aware I have grown a reputation in this forum of hating this album. I understood that my negative comments on The Lamb annoyed those who love it - mind you, for me songs such as The Battle of Epping Forest, All In A Mouse's Night or Robbery, Assault and Battery belong to the greatest Genesis ever created and I felt annoyed often enough of the repeating negative comments about these songs so yes, I can understand how it bothers people if I keep hating on their beloved jewel album. Which is why I got used to keep my thoughts about The Lamb to myself to keep the mood nice and friendly in the forum.
BUT: this thread asks explicitly for "anti-Lamb people". So here I will not hold back, I will try to explain my views on this Genesis album in a neutral manner but I will mention everything I dislike about The Lamb. If you can't stand reading negative things about The Lamb, stop reading. wink

Soooo...... Thinking about this, I had to let my thoughts go back on memory lane to the time I first heard The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway and how I found it back then, and I had to listen into myself and figure out how I find it now opposed to back then.

Back in the middle of the 90s, when I must have been ~14 years old, I was exploring all the classic Genesis albums of the 70s. Selling England had always been my top favourite, Foxtrot and Nursery Cryme were top-notch too; Trespass found me struggling a little more, I found that was the one when they were trying already but hadn't figured it out yet. A Trick Of The Tail was stunning, almost on the same level as Selling England; Seconds Out was awesome, And Then There Were Three as a little let-down but not too bad either. I knew I was still missing two studio albums, The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway and Wind & Wuthering. Back at a time when the internet did technically exist but we were yet far from using it, the only source for knowing about missing albums were the German rock & pop encyclopedias. There were two: one written by Siegfried Schmitt-Joos and Barry Graves, one written by Frank Laufenberg. My dad owned the former, it had lists with full discographies under each entry; that aside my dad and me valued it for the information it provided but we didn't like the patronising, cynical tone everything was written, pretty much adopting the antics of the British music press. The latter my dad gave me for my birthday, it was a way more neutral and witty alternative to the other one but it didn't provide discographies, instead it listed the top 10 chart singles.

So anyway, from knowing Seconds Out I figured "The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway" and "The Carpet Crawl" would be on 'The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway' while "Afterglow" would be on 'Wind and Wuthering' - I could not be sure about this but my guess was: since Carpet Crawlers had the same keyboard playing style as "The Lamb" it would surely be on the same album, so Afterglow had to be the only song left from that other studio album. cheesy I loved the SO version of "The Lamb" (leading into Musical Box), The Carpet Crawl took me a little longer though - that one was unusually simple for Genesis. At that time I was all about the complex chords and odd time signatures and synth solos and guitar solos, Carpet Crawl had nothing of all of that. Still it grew on me quickly.

So with that I got really curious about these two albums - The Lamb became the first I got to hear, Wind and Wuthering followed a little later. Wind was the one I loved right away, it was one more great album to all the others - The Lamb wasn't.
The very first thing I noticed about The Lamb was, naturally, the title track: I didn't like the studio version. It was a lot slower than the SO version, it completely lacked "the edge" of the live version, and Gabriel's singing bothered me - his voice sounded hoarse, totally different from Selling England. I couldn't warm up to this version, I preferred the live version. The following songs were not bad but they didn't exactly hook me: Fly On A Windshield (I had the CD edition that makes 'Broadway Melody' only the final 30 seconds) was ok, Cuckoo Cocoon a nice song but again Gabriel's voice and the effects on it bothered me, In The Cage the first song that came close to Genesis as I knew them. Grand Parade - again I missed the variety of Genesis songs as on Selling England, Foxtrot, Trick etc. Back in NYC was ok, Hairless Heart a real nice germ for what would might have been a good song - but then Counting Out Time cuts right in and keeps Hairless Heart from evolving anywhere! And COT being overly simple and silly. Carpet Crawlers, the studio version was good; Chamber of 32 doors - not bad but fairly depressing, not exactly what I had expected from a Genesis album.

On the CD 2: Lilywhite Lilith - a rocky edge but again it failed to hook me. The Waiting Room - what in the worldhuh That one I hated right away, that was what I would call an experiment gone wrong. Leave that stuff to Pink Floyd, they had their Interstellar Overdrive and their Sysyphos etc. and they were better at it. Anyway - actually a good song, just again pretty short and not becoming anything of the likes of a Cinema Show, a Firth of Fifth, a Watcher Of The Skies... and again quite depressing. Supernatural Anaesthetist - kind of lame and at that point that abrupt ending destroyed the flow once again for me, just like COT had done cutting into Hairless Heart. The Lamia - again, actually quite good but just sooo depressing again... Silent Sorrow - did they run out of ideas? The intro of Colony of Slippermen - still run out of ideas, a reprise of The Waiting Room? This was supposed to be a Genesis album, seriously? Slippermen, the actual song - finally, they could still do it. This was became my clear favourite. The Light Dies Down: oh no, not another lame song that lacks substance. And I really didn't like that synth that sounds like a cat, just like in The Waiting Room, and just like the solo in Counting Out Time... Riding The Scree: ok, that one was nice. In The Rapids: I hear Pink Floyd once again, the song had a nice sound but it should have been longer and develop somewhere - instead: hell no, here we go again, they cut right into it. 'it', a song that was so unremarkable I could not recall it in memory even after repeated listening - not before I heard the Three Sides Live version which brought it to my attention the first time and which surpasses the studio version so much.

So bottom line: I had had great expectations that went unfulfilled. In The Cage and The Colony of Slippermen were the only songs that stood out as "real" Genesis songs to me. Gabriel's voice bothered me in several songs (most of all Back in NYC). Most songs were way too short and didn't get any chance to become what the classic Genesis epics such as The Cinema Show, Moonlit Knight etc. were. Hairless Heart and In The Rapids got just straightly cut off. The overall mood of the album was quite depressing and unbalanced. I missed the musical complexity of other classic Genesis albums. I could hear the band that had just created the ingenious Selling England, now struggling to get their ideas going anywhere. I missed Hackett solos in the league of FOF and Moonlit Knight. And so on and so on...

There was just so much wrong with this album. Worst of all, it was not just bad, it actually had lots of good elements in it but they kept failing to make something of these good ideas. I kept listening to the album, stopped eventually - because it kept bringing down my mood. So these were the impressions I got way back then which stuck with me for long. Oh, by the way: as my English skills back then were a lot worse than today, I never paid too much attention to lyrics - but I did read the story. Funny, it didn't bother me like the music did, then again it didn't do much for me either.

Sooooo...... fast forward some 20 years. Nick Davis has remixed all Genesis albums. Listening to the remixes brings back the classic Genesis albums to my attention. While I'm not terribly happy with Foxtrot and Selling England, Trespass and The Lamb benefit incredibly from the new sound. It's fun to discover so many little details that were lost in the old remasters - and that aside, I find that every album has grown on me, yes, even The Lamb.

So, that album gets its second chance: I find I see it more within the context of Genesis' history now so it does have its interesting side by any means. BUT: listening just for the sake of it, just for enjoyment and entertainment? All the albums from Trespass to Wind work great for me, The Lamb not so much. I'm milder on it now but essentially it's still the same old flaws that spoil it for me. It still puts me in a bad mood. Plus, nowadays I can say a lot more about the story: why doesn't Rael have a background? Parents who formed him in some way? Any love affair who re-appears and confronts him? Any events from the past that makes him act in certain ways? To be honest, musicians are not story wrights, imho Gabriel was not experienced enough to write some big story like this. Nonetheless: I respect all his countless allusions and puns he put into this story. There is some genius in it, still it failed to find into shape.

So yes. That was kind of summing it all up while the "characters remaining" field keeps telling me I am running out of character grin I hope I made some sense, I could go into detail a lot more but I guess this post is lengthy enough already.
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question Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #41 on: Aug 28th, 2017, 08:36am »

Schrottrocker - I read your whole assessment and found it interesting.

I also considered the album to be "depressing" on early listens, but as it's grown on me I no longer hear it that way.

I especially found one complaint of yours to be interesting: that you consider a number of the album's songs not to have been developed to the extent that they might have been. I've never thought of the album that way myself, but I can see why someone else might.
« Last Edit: Aug 28th, 2017, 08:38am by onetwothree » User IP Logged

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question Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #42 on: Aug 28th, 2017, 10:12am »

Yes, in a way it is a similar problem with And Then There Were Three where songs were kept shorter and simpler than before. Or like if the parts of Supper's Ready were defined as single songs and not connected as they are.

Dang, my long post above must really be depressing for anyone who loves The Lamb! laugh Sorry
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xx Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #43 on: Aug 28th, 2017, 11:21am »

on Aug 28th, 2017, 10:12am, Schrottrocker wrote:


Dang, my long post above must really be depressing for anyone who loves The Lamb! laugh Sorry

Why apologise? You gave your opinion, as requested in the thread title. I absolutely love The Lamb, it's not only my favourite Genesis album (by quite some distance) but one of my top 10 absolute favourite albums ever. And even then, I don't find your post remotely depressing! (Though I realise you're a little tongue-in-cheek there...). It's quite interesting to hear opposing views on something I hold in very high regard. Also interesting that it again highlights certain divisions in Genesis fandom - it's not as completely b&w as this but there is some consistency in fans who really love the ATOTT/W&W stuff you mentioned, but aren't keen on The Lamb. I'm the opposite - love The Lamb but most of the Trick and especially W&W stuff leaves me cold.
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question Re: Anti-TLLDOB people: Why don't you like the alb
« Reply #44 on: Aug 28th, 2017, 3:54pm »

That's interesting. Are you a Gabriel fan, meaning do you enjoy his solo albums? I'm asking because I find of all Genesis albums The Lamb comes closest to Gabriel solo. The Chamber of 32 Doors could have been on any Gabriel album.
Speaking for me, I always had high respect for Gabriel's solo music for its artistic merit but I can't get into it, it doesn't give me much. Whilst I love Hackett's first couple albums, most of Phillips' and Banks' albums plus Rutherford's Smallcreep's Day. Trick, Wind and Three all are pretty similar to these, or at least they will share the same fans.
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