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 veryhotthread  Author  Topic: Sorry, Abacab. :(  (Read 2465 times)
onetwothree
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xx Re: Sorry, Abacab. :(
« Reply #60 on: Mar 20th, 2017, 07:02am »

on Mar 18th, 2017, 7:31pm, Dust wrote:
I like it a lot.

Is "like it a lot" meant to be sung to the tune of "like it or not"?
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xx Re: Sorry, Abacab. :(
« Reply #61 on: Mar 20th, 2017, 10:27am »

on Mar 20th, 2017, 07:02am, onetwothree wrote:
Is "like it a lot" meant to be sung to the tune of "like it or not"?


laugh
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Backdrifter
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« Reply #62 on: Mar 22nd, 2017, 12:33pm »

I'm firmly on the pro-Abacab side. After The Lamb, it's my favourite Genesis album and one I play all of quite frequently. I like the more open, spacey, edgier feel of it. The stripping-down and focusing of their musical dexterity contributed a lot to this. PC still sounds very clearly like a great drummer on this album. It takes an already excellent musician to do simpler stuff and make it sound great. I like all the songs to some extent, with M&SJ and KID being two of my absolute favourite Genesis songs.

My 'version' of the album reinstates Naminanu and Submarine either side of Dodo/Lurker. I do admit it would be a better album with those in, and any 2 of the final 4 tracks out. But for me, none of them are stinkers.

I love that they were working on a whole different album then realised it was like the last 2 albums all over again and junked it, and started over again to produce Abacab. I have huge respect for a band that takes that sort of approach. I have the strong feeling that if they'd come out with something very like Duke or ATTWT, I would probably have started to get bored and gone off them. Abacab gave their sound, and my appreciation of it, a shot in the arm.

Therefore, I disagree with every single thing in the original post, though I've always understood why some fans don't like the album. No need for the 'apology' to Abacab fans though, at least not to me. I'm interested by some of the reasons for the dislike but ultimately it doesn't matter to me.
« Last Edit: Mar 22nd, 2017, 12:35pm by Backdrifter » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Sorry, Abacab. :(
« Reply #63 on: Mar 22nd, 2017, 1:08pm »

on Mar 22nd, 2017, 12:33pm, Backdrifter wrote:
After The Lamb, it's my favourite Genesis album and one I play all of quite frequently.


Ah, a fellow Lambite (if that's not a thing, it should be)! Nice!
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xx Re: Sorry, Abacab. :(
« Reply #64 on: Mar 22nd, 2017, 3:02pm »

on Mar 22nd, 2017, 12:33pm, Backdrifter wrote:
I like the more open, spacey, edgier feel of it. The stripping-down and focusing of their musical dexterity contributed a lot to this. PC still sounds very clearly like a great drummer on this album.
I love that they were working on a whole different album then realised it was like the last 2 albums all over again and junked it, and started over again to produce Abacab. I have huge respect for a band that takes that sort of approach. I have the strong feeling that if they'd come out with something very like Duke or ATTWT, I would probably have started to get bored and gone off them. Abacab gave their sound, and my appreciation of it, a shot in the arm.

Therefore, I disagree with every single thing in the original post, though I've always understood why some fans don't like the album. No need for the 'apology' to Abacab fans though, at least not to me. I'm interested by some of the reasons for the dislike but ultimately it doesn't matter to me.

I agree with almost everything you say and yet I cannot share your enthusiasm for the album. For starters it's much more interesting to debate in these terms than being automatically lumped as an old era fan or Phil hater and such. I too have a tremendous respect for what they did, it wasn't easy and much as I like Tony's music I feel on Duke, particularly with his solo songs, including Evidence of Autumn, it was getting a bit tired and formulaic. IMO they wouldn't have survived the new decade and I mean both commercially AND musically.
Phil as a drummer, as I said clearly was still in his prime, this cannot possibly change with one record, only with the new course, less was required and I simply missed that, I don't think there's any sly on him implied.
Abacab was pivotal or, as music critics love to say: 'seminal' for the band, only for my money very, very poor and thin , materialwise and by that I don't mean compared to say Foxtrot or SEbtP but rather Genesis or from a commercial point of view, Invisible Touch.
It says imo something that no song was included on their last tour or even with Ray for that matter and it says something that you won't hear any Abacab song on the radio today, although some of those songs are radio friendly. It's even OK to like stuff like LION or Paperlate, although to my ears they are nothing more than fillers which have been generally forgotten but without belittling the importance of the album I think time put things in perspective for it.
« Last Edit: Mar 22nd, 2017, 3:06pm by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Sorry, Abacab. :(
« Reply #65 on: Mar 22nd, 2017, 4:36pm »

on Mar 22nd, 2017, 12:33pm, Backdrifter wrote:
I'm firmly on the pro-Abacab side. After The Lamb, it's my favourite Genesis album and one I play all of quite frequently. I like the more open, spacey, edgier feel of it. The stripping-down and focusing of their musical dexterity contributed a lot to this. PC still sounds very clearly like a great drummer on this album. It takes an already excellent musician to do simpler stuff and make it sound great. I like all the songs to some extent, with M&SJ and KID being two of my absolute favourite Genesis songs.

My 'version' of the album reinstates Naminanu and Submarine either side of Dodo/Lurker. I do admit it would be a better album with those in, and any 2 of the final 4 tracks out. But for me, none of them are stinkers.

I love that they were working on a whole different album then realised it was like the last 2 albums all over again and junked it, and started over again to produce Abacab. I have huge respect for a band that takes that sort of approach. I have the strong feeling that if they'd come out with something very like Duke or ATTWT, I would probably have started to get bored and gone off them. Abacab gave their sound, and my appreciation of it, a shot in the arm.

Therefore, I disagree with every single thing in the original post, though I've always understood why some fans don't like the album. No need for the 'apology' to Abacab fans though, at least not to me. I'm interested by some of the reasons for the dislike but ultimately it doesn't matter to me.


I agree with you. For the title track & Dodo/Lurker alone, this is actually now my second favourite album (after WCD). I love the 'new wave' sound of it & I am normally not a 'new wave' person. I put it with Queen's News Of The World & Billy Joel's Glass Houses as an answer to new wave. It doesn't bother me that on their last tour they played nothing from it.
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« Reply #66 on: Mar 22nd, 2017, 4:44pm »

I honestly didn't know so many people would defend the album, with some even regarding it a classic of their discography. Like I said, maybe I'm just too hard on it, or I just don't "get" it. On the other hand, perhaps my dislike of it is just a testament to how much this band means to me. Genesis's music is often of such an near-unsurpassably high standard that it's really noticeable to me when they make something that doesn't cut the mustard.

Specifically, what I think of each track:

Abacab: Main part is great, the ending is only so-so however, and overlong.
No Reply At All: Middling and forgettable, should have been on a Phil Collins solo album.
Me And Sarah Jane: Good, at times great, but below average for a Tony song.
Keep It Dark: Just good, not much else to say about it.
Dodo/Lurker: Great, though like Abacab I much prefer the first section to the second section.
Who Dunnit?: Terrible. Occasional bits are listenable, but most of it is too obnoxious for me.
Man On The Corner: Boring, mediocre and forgettable.
Like It Or Not: Same as the previous, possibly worse.
Another Record: A middling conclusion to the album. However, I'll admit that it's the best of the final three and better than NRAA.

Overall, everything on it blends together into a shapeless lump of odds and ends, good bits and bad bits, complete songs and incomplete songs... and that's why it's my least favourite. It's listenable but lacks a certain ideal magic that the other Genesis albums have; even FGTR has some of that Genesis magic. I know it sounds like I'm just making up excuses to justify my opinion, as if I'm actively trying to dislike it, but I'm not.

Some on the forum dislike IT and WCD for the same or similar reasons I've given throughout this discussion. Personally I love both of those albums, IT because I just like everything on it, and WCD because although it's overlong and could have had two or three tracks cut from it, the great moments heavily outweigh the not-so-great ones.
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xx Re: Sorry, Abacab. :(
« Reply #67 on: Mar 22nd, 2017, 5:36pm »

on Mar 22nd, 2017, 4:44pm, NoSonOfVine wrote:
I honestly didn't know so many people would defend the album
Personally I love both of those albums, IT because I just like everything on it, and WCD because although it's overlong and could have had two or three tracks cut from it, the great moments heavily outweigh the not-so-great ones.

You shouldn't be surprised, people like or dislike things for different reasons, all of them valid....Or none at the same time. For instance while I may agree with you on Abacab I disagree on IT which I dislike for being a glossy, soulless hit machine or WCD, where my opinion is exactly the opposite, a couple of very good songs drowned in mediocrity but so what? Vive la difference!I do however, sometimes think that even being fans we could go beyond the scope of what we like and think that is generally 'great'. I like stuff like Undertow and Open Door, for instance, I know though they are far from being 'classics'. They are just cute littlle things I happen to like, Genesis as a band will not be remembered by them, I understand why they are not played live, the majority of fans don't think highly of them and I suspect that goes for the band as well.
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« Reply #68 on: Mar 22nd, 2017, 6:37pm »

on Mar 22nd, 2017, 5:36pm, Fabrizio wrote:
You shouldn't be surprised, people like or dislike things for different reasons, all of them valid....Or none at the same time. For instance while I may agree with you on Abacab I disagree on IT which I dislike for being a glossy, soulless hit machine or WCD, where my opinion is exactly the opposite, a couple of very good songs drowned in mediocrity but so what? Vive la difference!

I've always loved both of these albums because of the cheerful enthusiasm and energy present on both. IT is cheesy, yes, but delightfully so, in my opinion. WCD is a nice mixture of fun, poignant and powerful songs, with the odd forgivable blip here and there.

Quote:
I do however, sometimes think that even being fans we could go beyond the scope of what we like and think that is generally 'great'. I like stuff like Undertow and Open Door, for instance, I know though they are far from being 'classics'.

I consider Undertow to be one of their finest gems and one of the best short (less then 5 minutes) songs ever written. Everything about it is spot-on: the lyrics, the tone, the atmospherics, the sense of honest emotion and deep meaning (the desire to never stop fighting to keep your family safe, even when faced with year after year of pain and sorrow).
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« Reply #69 on: Mar 23rd, 2017, 04:55am »

on Mar 22nd, 2017, 3:02pm, Fabrizio wrote:
I agree with almost everything you say and yet I cannot share your enthusiasm for the album. For starters it's much more interesting to debate in these terms than being automatically lumped as an old era fan or Phil hater and such. I too have a tremendous respect for what they did, it wasn't easy and much as I like Tony's music I feel on Duke, particularly with his solo songs, including Evidence of Autumn, it was getting a bit tired and formulaic. IMO they wouldn't have survived the new decade and I mean both commercially AND musically.
Phil as a drummer, as I said clearly was still in his prime, this cannot possibly change with one record, only with the new course, less was required and I simply missed that, I don't think there's any sly on him implied.
Abacab was pivotal or, as music critics love to say: 'seminal' for the band, only for my money very, very poor and thin , materialwise and by that I don't mean compared to say Foxtrot or SEbtP but rather Genesis or from a commercial point of view, Invisible Touch.
It says imo something that no song was included on their last tour or even with Ray for that matter and it says something that you won't hear any Abacab song on the radio today, although some of those songs are radio friendly. It's even OK to like stuff like LION or Paperlate, although to my ears they are nothing more than fillers which have been generally forgotten but without belittling the importance of the album I think time put things in perspective for it.


I get that, it's possible to accept and respect the bold change of direction etc but still not like the result. What I don't buy into is the idea that the absence of it from the 07 tour or its lack of radio play are somehow indicators of its poor quality. Both those omissions apply to plenty of their other stuff as well.

As to NoSonOfVine's remarks above, I really don't think there's anything to chew over regarding whether or not you "get" it - if you don't like it, you don't like it. As I said, I can absolutely see how within their body of work some fans dislike it very much. It's definitely not one for all Genesis fans. My favourite album is The Lamb but I'm aware many Genesis fans don't much like that one either and I can understand that too. W&W is a very firm favourite of many fans but it leaves me cold and is one of my least favourites (even though Blood and Afterglow are among their very best songs in my opinion).
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xx Re: Sorry, Abacab. :(
« Reply #70 on: Mar 23rd, 2017, 08:24am »

on Mar 22nd, 2017, 6:37pm, NoSonOfVine wrote:
I consider Undertow to be one of their finest gems and one of the best short (less then 5 minutes) songs ever written.

Much as I like it and I've always have, I'd be the first to concede that Tony has done better and it probably remains in the dark horse category. As for the lenght, since we are discussing Abacab, it is an attempt to do things differently but not quite, the song was heavily edited with bits ending up on A Curious Feeling but imo it suffers from this editing, it remains a typical Banks' songs, as such it begs for and intro, requires and instrumental bridge with a classical Tony's crescendo and an outro would fit just fine. Only with Abacab they really will try to approach things differently and my guess is Tony was the one having the most trouble coping with it.
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« Reply #71 on: Mar 23rd, 2017, 08:35am »

on Mar 23rd, 2017, 04:55am, Backdrifter wrote:
I get that, it's possible to accept and respect the bold change of direction etc but still not like the result. What I don't buy into is the idea that the absence of it from the 07 tour or its lack of radio play are somehow indicators of its poor quality.

Thanks, that is exactly it, I applaud the bravery, I think it was much needed only the 'meat' isn't quite there for me,it is there however, on the first side of the subsequent album. Again, I think a song like Whodunnit was quite representative: they knew it was onboxious, they knew it was going to rile and diconcert fans, they dropped stuff like You might recall in its favor and yet they did it anyway. Quite ballsy, I admire that, the song remains bad anyway.
As for dropping the material from the tour, it is of course no absolute indicator, particularly when you have a catalogue spanning over decades, I am proabably reading too much into it but it is odd, as the only album from the new course not to be represented at all, wouldn't you say? I understand not playing stuff from Trespass, NC, Foxtrot and of course CAS but a record from 81?
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« Reply #72 on: Mar 23rd, 2017, 3:21pm »

on Mar 23rd, 2017, 08:35am, Fabrizio wrote:
As for dropping the material from the tour, it is of course no absolute indicator, particularly when you have a catalogue spanning over decades, I am proabably reading too much into it but it is odd, as the only album from the new course not to be represented at all, wouldn't you say? I understand not playing stuff from Trespass, NC, Foxtrot and of course CAS but a record from 81?


Yes it's a little odd, and for me disappointing, but on balance I do think you're reading too much into it. Plus, even though I like the album a lot, I don't think it ever translated very well live. The title track worked best, Dodo/Lurker was okay, but of the rest even ones I love such as M&SJ and KID were pretty lame in their live versions. As a live band I don't think they were a natural fit for that much sparser, spacier sound.
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« Reply #73 on: Mar 23rd, 2017, 3:24pm »

on Mar 22nd, 2017, 1:08pm, rael1974 wrote:
Ah, a fellow Lambite (if that's not a thing, it should be)! Nice!


Oh, it's a thing, and I am.
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« Reply #74 on: Mar 23rd, 2017, 3:42pm »

on Mar 23rd, 2017, 3:24pm, Backdrifter wrote:
Oh, it's a thing, and I am.

I'm fairly sure most people on this forum are big fans of TTLDOB.

I am one. It is a near-masterpiece.
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