Board Logo
« Sorry, Abacab. :( »

Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
Jun 28th, 2017, 12:21am


Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

« Previous Topic | Next Topic »
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6  Notify Send Topic Print
 veryhotthread  Author  Topic: Sorry, Abacab. :(  (Read 4267 times)
TonyEdwards
Duke/Duchess
ImageImageImageImage


member is offline

Avatar




PM


Posts: 328
xx Re: Sorry, Abacab. :(
« Reply #45 on: Mar 18th, 2017, 4:54pm »

on Mar 18th, 2017, 4:37pm, NoSonOfVine wrote:
So, our opinions of the album are at opposite ends of the spectrum entirely. I still think it's fascinating that two different fans of Genesis can hear the same album in entirely different ways. smiley


Absolutely - they've released such a great diversity of material, it's no surprise that fans have differing views of what the "best" album or era is.

Two other things to love about Abacab, by the way: Collins' voice; and Collins' drumming.

User IP Logged

Dust
Lord/Lady of Lords
ImageImageImageImageImage


member is offline

Avatar




PM

Gender: Male
Posts: 9266
xx Re: Sorry, Abacab. :(
« Reply #46 on: Mar 18th, 2017, 7:31pm »

on Mar 18th, 2017, 12:24am, rael1974 wrote:
Am I the only one that likes "Like It Or Not", whether it should have been on Abacab or not?

I like it a lot.
User IP Logged

rael1974
Lord/Lady of Lords
ImageImageImageImageImage


member is offline

Avatar

"They call me the trail blazer-Rael-electric razor."


PM

Gender: Male
Posts: 577
xx Re: Sorry, Abacab. :(
« Reply #47 on: Mar 19th, 2017, 12:48am »

on Mar 18th, 2017, 4:37pm, NoSonOfVine wrote:
By the way, if I were forced to make a choice, I'd absolutely listen to Abacab over any album by Ed Sheeran, Miley Cyrus, Snoop Dogg, Nicki Minaj, Kanye West, Taylor Swift, etc. laugh


Good to know. smiley
User IP Logged

User Image
Fabrizio
Lord/Lady of Lords
ImageImageImageImageImage


member is offline

Avatar

Can you tell me where my country lies?


PM

Gender: Male
Posts: 3034
xx Re: Sorry, Abacab. :(
« Reply #48 on: Mar 19th, 2017, 08:09am »

on Mar 18th, 2017, 4:54pm, TonyEdwards wrote:
Two other things to love about Abacab, by the way: Collins' voice; and Collins' drumming.


I am with you with the former not so much with the latter.
To me Abacab and Genesis represent the peak of Phil's vocal performances and to be clear I am not talking about what he sings, rather how he sings it. On Abacab particularly, since we broght up terms like 'edge' and 'raw', much of it is due to his voice and performances imo.
As for the drumming, well, OK, he plays the way he is supposed to be playing on Abacab, mostly backbeats but when one considers what he played on previous records and how he played it, it's hard to say his drumming really stands out on Abacab. There's a strong empahsis on sound of course, the sound he started devoloping with and for Peter on PG3 and yes, that sound was captivating even though imo he ended up milking it too much throughout the years but from Abacab on he will increasingly become more of the singer and less of the drummer.
« Last Edit: Mar 19th, 2017, 08:19am by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

Kerry95
Lord/Lady of Lords
ImageImageImageImageImage


member is offline

Avatar




PM


Posts: 645
thumbdown Re: Sorry, Abacab. :(
« Reply #49 on: Mar 19th, 2017, 08:18am »

i think that like or not was included because they presumably made the deal to include one individual song by each member.
User IP Logged

HENRY
Lord/Lady of Lords
ImageImageImageImageImage


member is offline

Avatar

Miserable Git


PM

Gender: Male
Posts: 6441
thumbdown Re: Sorry, Abacab. :(
« Reply #50 on: Mar 19th, 2017, 08:47am »

on Mar 19th, 2017, 08:18am, Kerry95 wrote:
i think that like or not was included because they presumably made the deal to include one individual song by each member.
Arguably, not a deliberate consideration. Yes, the writing contributions were delegated evenly, but that does not deem that this song was included specificly to adhere to that conclusion.
User IP Logged

"Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid." - Frank Zappa
HENRY
Lord/Lady of Lords
ImageImageImageImageImage


member is offline

Avatar

Miserable Git


PM

Gender: Male
Posts: 6441
thumbdown Re: Sorry, Abacab. :(
« Reply #51 on: Mar 19th, 2017, 09:10am »

I haven't gone through all of the responses to this thread, but I think that a few issues need to be considered...

According to the band, Abacab represents how they had actually sounded in the studio without post production and other manipulations. Heck, the latter half of "Abacab" is essentially a straight recording of a jam session.

It seems that many folks who are bothered by the album insist upon some sort of "traditional" sound by the band, but the band members themselves acknowledge that is what they wanted to avoid. Artists move on; sometimes that doesn't figure into expectations. So, who's version is most valid? The artist, or the random outsider?
User IP Logged

"Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid." - Frank Zappa
HENRY
Lord/Lady of Lords
ImageImageImageImageImage


member is offline

Avatar

Miserable Git


PM

Gender: Male
Posts: 6441
xx Re: Sorry, Abacab. :(
« Reply #52 on: Mar 19th, 2017, 09:16am »

on Mar 18th, 2017, 12:24am, rael1974 wrote:
Am I the only one that likes "Like It Or Not", whether it should have been on Abacab or not?

Hell, I love it. Always one of my favorite Genesis tracks. Was fortunate to see and hear the band play it live. Great song.

Funny how it seems relegated to being a "pop" song. Predujices certainly run deep.
User IP Logged

"Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid." - Frank Zappa
TonyEdwards
Duke/Duchess
ImageImageImageImage


member is offline

Avatar




PM


Posts: 328
xx Re: Sorry, Abacab. :(
« Reply #53 on: Mar 19th, 2017, 10:53am »

on Mar 19th, 2017, 08:09am, Fabrizio wrote:
I am with you with the former not so much with the latter.
To me Abacab and Genesis represent the peak of Phil's vocal performances and to be clear I am not talking about what he sings, rather how he sings it. On Abacab particularly, since we broght up terms like 'edge' and 'raw', much of it is due to his voice and performances imo.
As for the drumming, well, OK, he plays the way he is supposed to be playing on Abacab, mostly backbeats but when one considers what he played on previous records and how he played it, it's hard to say his drumming really stands out on Abacab. There's a strong empahsis on sound of course, the sound he started devoloping with and for Peter on PG3 and yes, that sound was captivating even though imo he ended up milking it too much throughout the years but from Abacab on he will increasingly become more of the singer and less of the drummer.


I respectfully disagree; his playing on Abacab, even if not as busy as on previous albums, is exquisite (Me & Sarah Jane in particular).

Bit of a diversion - Phil at the Band Aid recording:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kG2AqnDhz4
« Last Edit: Mar 19th, 2017, 11:04am by TonyEdwards » User IP Logged

foxfeeder
Watcher of the Skies
ImageImageImageImageImage


member is offline

Avatar

I'm an all-eras fan. Of Steve Hackett!


PM

Gender: Male
Posts: 4965
thumbdown Re: Sorry, Abacab. :(
« Reply #54 on: Mar 19th, 2017, 12:04pm »

on Mar 18th, 2017, 4:37pm, NoSonOfVine wrote:
So, our opinions of the album are at opposite ends of the spectrum entirely. I still think it's fascinating that two different fans of Genesis can hear the same album in entirely different ways. smiley

By the way, if I were forced to make a choice, I'd absolutely listen to Abacab over any album by Ed Sheeran, Miley Cyrus, Snoop Dogg, Nicki Minaj, Kanye West, Taylor Swift, etc. laugh


Damning with faint praise!

(Hell, I'd choose Joe Dolce over Snoop Dogg!)
User IP Logged

Ian

"One wish?"
"Yes, one" said the genie.
"Simple! I'll have the musical talent of Steve Hackett" I replied!
WinstonWolf
Duke/Duchess
ImageImageImageImage


member is offline

Avatar




PM

Gender: Male
Posts: 494
xx Re: Sorry, Abacab. :(
« Reply #55 on: Mar 19th, 2017, 1:08pm »

on Mar 19th, 2017, 10:53am, TonyEdwards wrote:
I respectfully disagree; his playing on Abacab, even if not as busy as on previous albums, is exquisite (Me & Sarah Jane in particular).


I agree. Just because Phil wasn't throwing in a ton of "look at me" fills all over the place (which he really stopped doing WAY before Abacab) it doesn't mean the playing is that much less impressive, it's just doing things differently.

Songs like You Might Recall and the instrumental half of Abacab have some very odd bass drum placement. No Reply At All sounds simple but the way Phil's playing blends with the drum machine is very hard to do well and the way every verse is a little different from the last shows how even "simple" parts grow and develop in a standard pop song.

Me and Sarah Jane has some deceptively busy parts and again if that song had been on an earlier album I don't think Phil would have chosen anything nearly as funky as what he ended up playing. Dodo/Lurker is also pretty busy, but again a bit deceptive because the busyness is often hiding inside the bigger, more obvious parts of the groove.

Like everyone else, Phil was trying different ways to play, and almost every track shows off some element he'd really not done before. Because the overall drum sound got pushed up in the mix Phil was using dynamics and note placement more than before. Fewer bombastic fills, yes, but there's still a lot of subtlety and creativity there.
User IP Logged

Phil Collins: 9/90 - Chapel Hill
6/94 - Raleigh
9/04 - Washington DC
Peter Gabriel: 6/03 - Washington DC
Genesis: 9/07 - Washington DC
Musical Box: 11/11 - Philadelphia
7/14 - Asheville
Steve Hackett 10/13 - Philadelphia
11/14 - Philadelphia
Fabrizio
Lord/Lady of Lords
ImageImageImageImageImage


member is offline

Avatar

Can you tell me where my country lies?


PM

Gender: Male
Posts: 3034
xx Re: Sorry, Abacab. :(
« Reply #56 on: Mar 19th, 2017, 2:26pm »

on Mar 19th, 2017, 10:53am, TonyEdwards wrote:
I respectfully disagree; his playing on Abacab, even if not as busy as on previous albums, is exquisite (Me & Sarah Jane in particular).

Bit of a diversion - Phil at the Band Aid recording:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kG2AqnDhz4

You are right, Me&Sarah Jane is exquisite and personally I never saw Phil as a 'busy' player.
User IP Logged

Fabrizio
Lord/Lady of Lords
ImageImageImageImageImage


member is offline

Avatar

Can you tell me where my country lies?


PM

Gender: Male
Posts: 3034
xx Re: Sorry, Abacab. :(
« Reply #57 on: Mar 19th, 2017, 2:48pm »

on Mar 19th, 2017, 1:08pm, WinstonWolf wrote:
I agree. Just because Phil wasn't throwing in a ton of "look at me" fills all over the place (which he really stopped doing WAY before Abacab) it doesn't mean the playing is that much less impressive, it's just doing things differently.

Songs like You Might Recall and the instrumental half of Abacab have some very odd bass drum placement. No Reply At All sounds simple but the way Phil's playing blends with the drum machine is very hard to do well and the way every verse is a little different from the last shows how even "simple" parts grow and develop in a standard pop song.

Me and Sarah Jane has some deceptively busy parts and again if that song had been on an earlier album I don't think Phil would have chosen anything nearly as funky as what he ended up playing. Dodo/Lurker is also pretty busy, but again a bit deceptive because the busyness is often hiding inside the bigger, more obvious parts of the groove.

Like everyone else, Phil was trying different ways to play, and almost every track shows off some element he'd really not done before. Because the overall drum sound got pushed up in the mix Phil was using dynamics and note placement more than before. Fewer bombastic fills, yes, but there's still a lot of subtlety and creativity there.

I've always regarded Phil's drumming as functional, musical and versatile. Never flashy, in Carl Palmer's fashion or Bill 'Keep up with me' Bruford. In 81, Abacab release year, he played and produced John Martyn's record Glorious Fool and his playing there, quite far from familiar territory, is simply amazing. The same apply to his drumming with Brand X of which he was still a member. If we accept that as a drummer he served the song and say that the songs became 'simplier' the rest is a logic consequence, than of course he is still a grear drummer and in 81 he was still at the top of his game but it is no blasphemy to say that somewhere along the way drumming became less and less important to him, compared to songwriting and singing. Sure, there are nice things on Abacab but it is where this all process begins imo. It goes for Tony too btw, still a great player but it is not an insult to say that he used to play more demanding stuff.
« Last Edit: Mar 19th, 2017, 3:38pm by Fabrizio » User IP Logged

Merryman72
Lord/Lady of Lords
ImageImageImageImageImage


member is offline

Avatar

Give me steam!


PM

Gender: Male
Posts: 4060
xx Re: Sorry, Abacab. :(
« Reply #58 on: Mar 19th, 2017, 6:58pm »

on Mar 16th, 2017, 7:26pm, rael1974 wrote:
Ah yes, that's right. The only difference is whether the creatures of subject are terrestrial or not.

[Re. "Trick of the Tail" and "Keep it Dark"]

I don't think it's specified in either case whether the "creatures" are terrestrial or not, right?

[By the way, I replied to this thinking that it was the most recent comment, but it just turned out to be the last comment on the page I was viewing..!]
« Last Edit: Mar 19th, 2017, 7:11pm by Merryman72 » User IP Logged

Was it you or was it me? Or was it he or she?

NB: despite what my name may suggest, I was not born in 1972 tongue
rael1974
Lord/Lady of Lords
ImageImageImageImageImage


member is offline

Avatar

"They call me the trail blazer-Rael-electric razor."


PM

Gender: Male
Posts: 577
xx Re: Sorry, Abacab. :(
« Reply #59 on: Mar 19th, 2017, 10:00pm »

on Mar 19th, 2017, 09:10am, HENRY wrote:
It seems that many folks who are bothered by the album insist upon some sort of "traditional" sound by the band, but the band members themselves acknowledge that is what they wanted to avoid. Artists move on; sometimes that doesn't figure into expectations. So, who's version is most valid? The artist, or the random outsider?


You make a very good point there.

on Mar 19th, 2017, 6:58pm, Merryman72 wrote:
[Re. "Trick of the Tail" and "Keep it Dark"]

I don't think it's specified in either case whether the "creatures" are terrestrial or not, right?

[By the way, I replied to this thinking that it was the most recent comment, but it just turned out to be the last comment on the page I was viewing..!]


I guess you're right about "A Trick Of The Tail", but I remember Tony Banks stating the lyrics of "Keep It Dark" are about a man who was abducted specifically by aliens. I don't have the source or quote for that though.
User IP Logged

User Image
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6  Notify Send Topic Print
« Previous Topic | Next Topic »

Donate $6.99 for 50,000 Ad-Free Pageviews!

| |

This forum powered for FREE by Conforums ©
Sign up for your own Free Message Board today!
Terms of Service | Privacy Policy | Conforums Support | Parental Controls