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Topic: Constructive criticism of a Genesis classic (Read 1359 times) |
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Down And Out
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Constructive criticism of a Genesis classic
« Thread started on: May 1st, 2012, 04:52am » |
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Here's an idea for a thread. There must some of us for whom at least one - maybe more - Genesis track generally deemed to be a classic doesn't quite cut the mustard. The idea is not just to say "such and such a track is over-rated" but to explain why you're not so keen on the track in a sentence or three. Also this thread is not meant to be about hating a track. I realise that this could get messy, but let's try and avoid comments like "you must be joking" and "how can you call yourself a Genesis fan".  Please also restrict your thoughts to one track per post. The inspiration for this was Dust's comments about The Musical Box in the album ranking thread. Anyway I'll start the ball rolling with:
Watcher Of The Skies
This track is undoubtedly a Genesis classic. I believe that the band often used to open shows with it between 1972 and 1974. Every tribute band I've seen has played it and it always appears to go down well. I'm sure that the mellotron opening must have sounded awesome live in 1972. But in 2012, that mellotron opening to me is one of the most dated sounds in the entire Genesis catalogue.  I also find the main part of the track slightly plodding and far less interesting musically than many songs of that period, such as Can-Utility And The Coastliners and even Get 'Em Out By Friday. The one part of WOTS that I do enjoy is the closing section - I find this quite powerful and moving. It's interesting that Genesis were still playing this section in 1976. So as I alluded to in my opening thread comments, I certainly don't hate Watcher Of The Skies. I think that it's an OK track, but there are plenty of other tracks by the guys that I would rank way ahead of it.
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NoSonofVine
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Re: Constructive criticism of a Genesis classic
« Reply #1 on: May 1st, 2012, 05:18am » |
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on May 1st, 2012, 04:52am, Down And Out wrote:Watcher Of The Skies
This track is undoubtedly a Genesis classic. I believe that the band often used to open shows with it between 1972 and 1974. Every tribute band I've seen has played it and it always appears to go down well. I'm sure that the mellotron opening must have sounded awesome live in 1972. But in 2012, that mellotron opening to me is one of the most dated sounds in the entire Genesis catalogue. I also find the main part of the track slightly plodding and far less interesting musically than many songs of that period, such as Can-Utility And The Coastliners and even Get 'Em Out By Friday. The one part of WOTS that I do enjoy is the closing section - I find this quite powerful and moving. It's interesting that Genesis were still playing this section in 1976. So as I alluded to in my opening thread comments, I certainly don't hate Watcher Of The Skies. I think that it's an OK track, but there are plenty of other tracks by the guys that I would rank way ahead of it. |
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Very good idea for a thread. I do, however, love Watcher of the Skies - I actually bought the song on iTunes for 99p and eventually went out and bought the whole Foxtrot album.  I think Watcher of the Skies is awesome because it is so disjointed and bizarre sounding. I also like the dated feeling of it too. It sounds like a bit like a zany, deliberately clunky jam session and that's why I love it.
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foxfeeder
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Re: Constructive criticism of a Genesis classic
« Reply #2 on: May 1st, 2012, 10:05am » |
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on May 1st, 2012, 04:52am, Down And Out wrote:Here's an idea for a thread. There must some of us for whom at least one - maybe more - Genesis track generally deemed to be a classic doesn't quite cut the mustard. The idea is not just to say "such and such a track is over-rated" but to explain why you're not so keen on the track in a sentence or three. Also this thread is not meant to be about hating a track. I realise that this could get messy, but let's try and avoid comments like "you must be joking" and "how can you call yourself a Genesis fan". Please also restrict your thoughts to one track per post. The inspiration for this was Dust's comments about The Musical Box in the album ranking thread. Anyway I'll start the ball rolling with:
Watcher Of The Skies
This track is undoubtedly a Genesis classic. I believe that the band often used to open shows with it between 1972 and 1974. Every tribute band I've seen has played it and it always appears to go down well. I'm sure that the mellotron opening must have sounded awesome live in 1972. But in 2012, that mellotron opening to me is one of the most dated sounds in the entire Genesis catalogue. I also find the main part of the track slightly plodding and far less interesting musically than many songs of that period, such as Can-Utility And The Coastliners and even Get 'Em Out By Friday. The one part of WOTS that I do enjoy is the closing section - I find this quite powerful and moving. It's interesting that Genesis were still playing this section in 1976. So as I alluded to in my opening thread comments, I certainly don't hate Watcher Of The Skies. I think that it's an OK track, but there are plenty of other tracks by the guys that I would rank way ahead of it.
"Now over to you" he says, ducking for cover.
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I always thought the intro sounded clunky, but then I was already a Moody Blues fan and Mike Pinder does it SO MUCH better! He might not be a better keyboard player per-se, but no-one can outperform him on a mellotron, he worked for the company!
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Down And Out
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Re: Constructive criticism of a Genesis classic
« Reply #3 on: May 1st, 2012, 12:29pm » |
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on May 1st, 2012, 05:18am, NoSonofVine wrote:Very good idea for a thread.
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Sadly nobody else appears to think so. 
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Merryman72
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Re: Constructive criticism of a Genesis classic
« Reply #4 on: May 1st, 2012, 12:35pm » |
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Interesting. I partly agree with what you say about the main part of "Watcher", but I do love the intro (and of course the ending too )
A while ago I would have said "Squonk", as I used to think it was a bit boring and plodding. But it's been steadily growing on me for the last year or so, and while I don't think it's one of the better songs on its album (not saying much on such a brilliant album  ), I do like the song a lot more now
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NB: despite what my name may suggest, I was not born in 1972: 72 is my favourite number. I am merely a 18-year-old whippersnapper 
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Re: Constructive criticism of a Genesis classic
« Reply #5 on: May 1st, 2012, 1:06pm » |
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"Watcher" is OK by me, but not one of my tops from the early era -- I have always thought it was a little "plodding" and disjointed too ... the mellotron opening could probably have been better originnlly, in my view, just through a Hammond -- to get rid of what Rick Wakeman used to call the "yowling cats" sound of the mellotron beast
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NoSonofVine
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Re: Constructive criticism of a Genesis classic
« Reply #6 on: May 1st, 2012, 2:18pm » |
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Here is my critique of The Battle of Epping Forest.
I have learned to enjoy this song somewhat over the past few months mainly due to wanting to conform to the forum (as many of you consider it a classic) but that doesn't make me change my opinion that it's an enormously flawed progressive rock number.
The song attempts to tell some kind of story about rivals fighting over an area of land, but to me, it utterly fails at this. There are far too many lyrics in this song, and most of it is irrelevant nonsense sang rather stupidly. The song seems to not know what to stick with, often switching between its various styles abruptly. The song manages to take us over eleven long minutes as it juggles lyrics and musical styles awkwardly, with hardly any instrumental gaps present in such a length; the few instrumental sections in the song aren't even that good. The only parts I truly like are the acoustic guitar parts, i.e. "They called me the reverend as I entered the church unstained..." but these are short and are quickly interrupted by Gabriel continuing to ramble on about something or other.
In my opinion the song is quite good in a few places, absolutely rubbish in several others, and the remaining parts are so-so. Overall the whole thing comes off as a stupid, overlong mess. It tries to do as much as possible in eleven and a half minutes and yet goes absolutely nowhere. Barely any of the lyrics work, almost every section is unfulfilling and it feels like a chore to sit through. It sounds a tad better when hearing it with the SEBTP album, but I would never force myself to listen to it seperately. Sorry.
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Schrottrocker
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Re: Constructive criticism of a Genesis classic
« Reply #7 on: May 1st, 2012, 2:21pm » |
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on May 1st, 2012, 12:29pm, Down And Out wrote:Sadly nobody else appears to think so.
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I do!
While I'm at it, I will choose Down and Out.
Imho, this song can by no means compare to songs such as the aforementioned Watcher of the Skies, Eleventh Earl of Mar, Robbery Assault & Battery, Dancing With The Moonlit Knight... the list could go on.
What makes Down and Out special?
- It is in 5/4. Ok. That's not special, regarding Genesis did songs before in 9/8, 7/4, 13/8... but anyways, an odd metre is always nice, especially on an album that moves one step closer to commercial areas. Now, what I don't like here is the way they play the rhythm. I cannot pinpoint what it is exactly but something about the rhythmic playing is really getting on my nerves in Down and Out. I never get this feeling from other fast-paced odd metre songs (such as mentioned above).
- Tony plays one of his crazy weirdo synth solos. Fair enough but I miss his ARP sound or something that comes close - his synths in say, Duke's Travels, The Day The Light Went Out or Follow You Follow Me don't bug me at all, I like them, but this particular sound he uses here...
- Huh, what else makes the song special?... I can't think of anything...  I can only add that not even Phil's vocal line does it for me, there's no real melody you can sing along in the verses - only in the chorus but that chorus line sounds really cheesy to me.
Compared to other proggy songs from the same album - Deep In The Motherlode, Say It's Alright Joe, The Day The Light Went Out - Down and Out is real mediocre to me. The whole song sounds like a wannabe prog show-off thing, as if they wanted to prove they still can do it. Too formulaic, no great ideas, just nothing that makes the song remarkable. They should have put The Day The Light Went Out instead.
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Re: Constructive criticism of a Genesis classic
« Reply #8 on: May 1st, 2012, 2:26pm » |
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on May 1st, 2012, 2:18pm, NoSonofVine wrote:Here is my critique of The Battle of Epping Forest.
I have learned to enjoy this song somewhat over the past few months mainly due to wanting to conform to the forum (as many of you consider it a classic) but that doesn't make me change my opinion that it's an enormously flawed progressive rock number.
The song attempts to tell some kind of story about rivals fighting over an area of land, but to me, it utterly fails at this. There are far too many lyrics in this song, and most of it is irrelevant nonsense sang rather stupidly. The song seems to not know what to stick with, often switching between its various styles abruptly. The song manages to take us over eleven long minutes as it juggles lyrics and musical styles awkwardly, with hardly any instrumental gaps present in such a length; the few instrumental sections in the song aren't even that good. The only parts I truly like are the acoustic guitar parts, i.e. "They called me the reverend as I entered the church unstained..." but these are short and are quickly interrupted by Gabriel continuing to ramble on about something or other.
In my opinion the song is quite good in a few places, absolutely rubbish in several others, and the remaining parts are so-so. Overall the whole thing comes off as a stupid, overlong mess. It tries to do as much as possible in eleven and a half minutes and yet goes absolutely nowhere. Barely any of the lyrics work, almost every section is unfulfilling and it feels like a chore to sit through. It sounds a tad better when hearing it with the SEBTP album, but I would never force myself to listen to it seperately. Sorry. |
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Each to their own .... I love Epping ...... whatever its 'shortcomings' this song is absolutely guaranteed to make me smile when I hear it ......... another big plus is that it always makes me think of Den (Barking Slug) when I hear it too !!! 
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Down And Out
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Re: Constructive criticism of a Genesis classic
« Reply #9 on: May 1st, 2012, 2:26pm » |
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on May 1st, 2012, 2:18pm, NoSonofVine wrote:Here is my critique of The Battle of Epping Forest.
I have learned to enjoy this song somewhat over the past few months mainly due to wanting to conform to the forum (as many of you consider it a classic) but that doesn't make me change my opinion that it's an enormously flawed progressive rock number.
The song attempts to tell some kind of story about rivals fighting over an area of land, but to me, it utterly fails at this. There are far too many lyrics in this song, and most of it is irrelevant nonsense sang rather stupidly. The song seems to not know what to stick with, often switching between its various styles abruptly. The song manages to take us over eleven long minutes as it juggles lyrics and musical styles awkwardly, with hardly any instrumental gaps present in such a length; the few instrumental sections in the song aren't even that good. The only parts I truly like are the acoustic guitar parts, i.e. "They called me the reverend as I entered the church unstained..." but these are short and are quickly interrupted by Gabriel continuing to ramble on about something or other.
In my opinion the song is quite good in a few places, absolutely rubbish in several others, and the remaining parts are so-so. Overall the whole thing comes off as a stupid, overlong mess. It tries to do as much as possible in eleven and a half minutes and yet goes absolutely nowhere. Barely any of the lyrics work, almost every section is unfulfilling and it feels like a chore to sit through. It sounds a tad better when hearing it with the SEBTP album, but I would never force myself to listen to it seperately. Sorry. |
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Thanks NSOV for entering into the spirit of the thread. I could be wrong, but my impression is that TBOEF is not so widely acknowledged as a Genesis classic as many other tracks. It seems to be a song that has often split opinion. Nevertheless I enjoyed reading your piece and can see where you are coming from.
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slowdancer
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Re: Constructive criticism of a Genesis classic
« Reply #10 on: May 1st, 2012, 2:36pm » |
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Speaking about The Battle Of Epping Forest, I think, the best critique, the song ever got, comes from Genesis themselves.
Great lyrics, great backing track, but simply too many words and notes per second.
That really sums it up. In my book The Battle Of Epping Forest has one of the greatest lyrics of all Genesis songs.
Here come the caval `ry...
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Dust
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Re: Constructive criticism of a Genesis classic
« Reply #11 on: May 1st, 2012, 2:45pm » |
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Well I've already had my go at "The Musical Box", and as Down And Out knows, I'm not a big fan of "Down and Out." Besides, Schott has just done an expert critique on it, which I wholeheartedly agree with.
There aren't a lot of Genesis "classics" that I dislike, but I suppose a fan-favorite that I cannot get into is "Duchess." I enjoy the instrumental build-up to the first verse, I appreciate Phil's strong vocals on the verses, and the story and lyrics--obviously relating a central theme of the album--are fine....
But the chorus falls completely flat for me. I keep wanting it to do something... shift into a minor key, or a diminished seventh, or some other musical thingy that, as a non-musician, I really don't understand. Every time we get through "You're the one we've waited for" I am left oddly dissatisfied. What I've been waiting for is some sort of musical closure that never arrives.
Frankly, I tend to view the entire song as a six-minute intro into the wonderful "Guide Vocal."
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Merryman72
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Re: Constructive criticism of a Genesis classic
« Reply #12 on: May 1st, 2012, 2:56pm » |
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on May 1st, 2012, 2:18pm, NoSonofVine wrote:Here is my critique of The Battle of Epping Forest.
I have learned to enjoy this song somewhat over the past few months mainly due to wanting to conform to the forum (as many of you consider it a classic) but that doesn't make me change my opinion that it's an enormously flawed progressive rock number.
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While I think that "Epping Forest" is an absolute joy to listen to (like, um, well just about any other Genesis song to my ears  ) I find this reasoning a bit peculiar. Why do you want to 'conform to the forum' (notwithstanding the fact that DAO has already noted that the forum is overall fairly ambivalent towards this track)? I would have thought that being a 19 year old who likes Genesis, you wouldn't be that bothered about conforming with anyone in terms of music taste 
Well that's my view as an odd and proud 17 year old anyway
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NB: despite what my name may suggest, I was not born in 1972: 72 is my favourite number. I am merely a 18-year-old whippersnapper
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Down And Out
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Re: Constructive criticism of a Genesis classic
« Reply #13 on: May 1st, 2012, 2:57pm » |
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on May 1st, 2012, 2:45pm, Dust wrote:Well I've already had my go at "The Musical Box", and as Down And Out knows, I'm not a big fan of "Down and Out." Besides, Schott has just done an expert critique on it, which I wholeheartedly agree with.
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I could be wrong here, but I suspect that if you asked a 100 forum members to name 10 classic Genesis songs off the top of their head, only 1 - me! - would include Down And Out in their list. On the other hand, the likes of Watcher Of The Skies, Supper's Ready, The Cinema Show, Firth Of Fifth, Blood On The Rooftops, Afterglow, etc. would probably appear in quite a few lists. Whilst I adore Down And Out - obviously - I don't think there is any way it can generally be regarded as a classic Genesis track.
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Dr. John
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Re: Constructive criticism of a Genesis classic
« Reply #14 on: May 1st, 2012, 3:12pm » |
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I agree with Down and Out about WotS. I love the closing section. I also like the intro, though not quite as much. But the vocal sections are pretty ordinary to me. I kind of tune out a bit.
Firth of Fifth is generally considered a Genesis classic and is another song that has much stronger musical sections than vocal sections. The verses are ponderous and the lyrics are pretty awkward. "The mountain cuts off the town from view like a cancer growth is removed by skill" is a horrible simile and one of Tony's weakest moments as a lyricist. By contrast, the piano intro and the middle instrumental section are some of my favourite musical moments.
-John
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